Transcript of Jesse Michel's recent interview with Matthew Pines

 just the other day some people inside D and tell and I was told one of the things came out of the water medium and Zach hit somebody woo they think how could they get here it's like well are they coming here from the planet over there or are they coming from branchial space not that far away who's in charge who's like the ultimate gatekeeper it feels like there is it's this disjointed cargo cult any imperial system when it runs into trouble first thing it does is cannibalizes the periphery things seem to be kind of

unraveling quickly someone basically has you know virtually Matrix dust yes I think the brain itself is probably you know maybe a room temperature Quantum system it was communication with some nhi it was like what's going on why are you here or something it was like Ci Wizards are messing with the timeline he became convinced that there was kind of the secret branch of physics I don't know how conspiratorial it is if you just look at all of human history we have classified entire areas of fundamental physics before yes don't

think we can do the same for AI what is the nature of the interaction between Human Society human institutions and non-human intelligence and they said it's a triangle AI Quantum and the grush stuff what the hell is actually happening here with Matthew Pines uh who's quickly become one of my favorite thinkers on the UFO topic and I think in general as far tracking what's going on in the US and world today and so I'm really excited to have you you first came on my radar you went a show called Mr obnoxious and I recommend

everybody uh listen to this because it's such a cogent synthesis of What's Happen happening in UAP UFO world today from a legislative perspective uh how you view uh kind of you know Control Systems over the topic and also you know public sentiment but you also come from kind of an interesting you have a crypto background and uh your director of intelligence in Sentinel one and so I thought this was a very fitting week for us to talk uh we've had a you know very uh conclusive election results uh and things are shifting in a

particular direction with the elction of trump and so uh how are you viewing the election yeah so I try not to you know read into what most people look at in terms of uh exit poles or demographic shifts but try to like what's the vibe like how would we look at this sort of the through the lens of American History um it seems like the closest uh analogy is sort of America's perista which as you know perista and the Soviet system came with gln right so reform and and opening up um and I think that is sort of maybe the closest template to

look to kind of think through the shift that we're going through um and you know in terms of the canonical kind of political economy that we're witnessing um evolve in real time is sort of this uh new anti-establishment uh kind of this heterogeneous alignment of of you know different political forces uh you know going after and essentially displacing or in the process potentially displacing kind of the old establishment um and in the Soviet system this was sort of you know had of the old establishment somewhat

decaying institutional structures that were no longer able to kind of keep Pace with the rate of change and external events and sort of an internal sense of um sclerosis and that was coming uh under twin pressures both from within a sense of like endogenous reform we need to sort of get ahead the curve as well external pressures right that wanted to break system uh from the outside and I think that's kind of the tension friction we're seeing play out is you know external forces that want to essentially break or you know reset to a certain

extent these uh decaying institutional structures and then maybe a competing mode which is like the folks that are currently kind of that the avatars sort of that um managerial technocracy that are you know trying to find a uh try trying to find a balance between uh tearing everything down versus sort of internal reform I think that was essentially the like implicit fight and it seems like the you know more structural parista argument went out right yeah and that's I think what we're going to head into uh is this era of and

know how successful it would be controlled or orderly versus you Messi it will be as you remains to seen um but I think that is you know the current the current uh phase shift that we're we're heading into what do you think because this is an open question for me you know like last time around Trump got elected he promised to quote unquote drain the swamp and then he goes on to hire Millie and uh John Bolton like a lot of Usual Suspects when it comes to you know Washington what he would probably Now call swamp land or

whatever uh and Bolton even I think is on air saying like I tricked Trump into hiring me or something and a lot of you know Trump the end of Trump's campaign was sort of you know um saying he's not going to hire these people does he just hire a lot of the same kind man managerial technocrats or is this truly a new Coalition of your you know tulsy vivec you know RFK Juniors that do kind of quote unquote drain the swamp I think it remains to be seen I think that you're probably going to see a huge amount of churn over the transition

as to see which of these different you know factional um power bases you know come out on top and in various administrative bureaucracies that get appointments and whatnot um if you look back at the you know Soviet version of this you know perista was a similar Alliance of kind um you know internal technocrats uh deep sort of quote deep State like Security figures from the KGB and sort of oligarchs right uh now our version of that is sort of you know this fun house mirror uh where you have kind of this Alliance of some maybe um sort uh

ejected technocrats folks that were technocrats at one point but were sort of turned against the systems they were sort of forged in aligned with you know our version of the sort these Tech oligarchs um you know Elon teal Etc and you know I think there is also a power base inside what you call our Security State services that um are definitely also on board right and so I think this is you know those are very loose diverse coalitions I don't know how stable they are weren't that stable in the Soviet system uh as it

went through it's pretty tumultuous um transformation and they always you know the is always Highwire acts right in terms of how do they manage to um do the kind of controlled reform and then you know essentially springboard right into uh you know to sort of reinvigorate renovate these institutions um you know kind of strip out the the sort of rotten floorboards but the overall infrastructure of the house remains intact and then they renovate it into beautiful new house you know we start tearing through walls sometimes you hit

something that's loadbearing right and so in any process like there's inherent risk mhm there's inherent risk that you could just you could hit something that's loadbearing in the system uh and then you and then you're dealing with a crisis and that's why they're trying to figure out okay what's the right balance between the folks that want to like burn it all down versus kind of the traditional technocrats that come in to fil itel right and I think Trump has the sense that in his first Administration it was it imbalanced right in a

sense it was he kind of cocooned a lot of his initiatives were kind um smothered and I think he's now going to swing in the other direction I think his default is going to be much more sort of let loose the V and rfks the Elon um we'll see I mean also look at these as like these are very big personalities right so I'm the one observation I hadn't seen too many people make that was always curious to me about Trump's like especially the you know the more recent part of campaign was just how many big personalities he brought on board yeah

like he's a big personality like he has a huge ego he's he needs to be in the spotlight right and yet he was somehow comfortable sharing the spotlight with these huge personalities that command a lot of attention Elon these guys you know they have their own platform have their own almost like somewhat equivalent power base to certain extent and that's a different mode when you know first you Trump 1.

0 would Brook nobody like that right you know he had to be the center of attention yeah you could easily see a world where Elon and Trump have some major public falling out and like what what happens in that world I don't quite know exactly yeah that's the thing is like everything now is copacetic you know they got the energy of win they're all aligned Etc yeah fast forward 6 months and you're actually governing right you actually have to make hard trade offs there's got to be you know certain priorities um that don't get that uh

everyone uh that don't check off everyone's boxes and that's what you'll see the friction potentially emerge is there change you're more bullish on and change you're more bearish on so it's like the make America healthy again movement reforming you know the FDA Vis both Food and Drugs getting us out Wars crypto reform you know UFOs and JFK like uh how would you slap probabilities on you know all of these things that's probably a very hard question yeah I mean well because it it's almost like looking at the Soviet system was not it

was chaotic right and I think it was very much um I think we should expect a certain element of chaos um not necessarily like complete disaster but just the idea of being able to predict what's going to happen the next day the next week month like that will not be feasible right I think when you're going through this era where those two you know major structural impulses are now being um pushed in terms of parista kind a structural reform it's kind of coming in like a hostile force and you know purging essentially elements of the

bureaucracies like there's going to be just it's going to get really messy this be my Baseline expectation at the same time that you have know and I think Trump just gave like a three minute speech where it was just like basically him and anouncing glass no right we're going to have Truth and Reconciliation commissions we're going to have you know we're going to un going to unseal all these records we're going to like you know peel back the curtain on all this stuff I mean that's basically him announcing glass no right

um now once you do that right there's a reason why I think those things haven't been made public for various reasons but it's like because they would create you know a lot of uncertainty and um uncomfortable questions uh to go back and there's going to be just a lot for us all to have kind of deal with and process all the same time so just be overwhelming right levels of just sort of information flow disclosures of various information as well just the the normal pillars of the institutional bureaucracies being uh sort of you

know facing a pretty severe test do you think like snapshot three months from today we all know who killed JFK I mean think that RFK will be rooting to dig that out right um I think you know this is I think would say 50/50 uh I never want to say 100% because you never know um but I'd say you this there's going to be a lot that's going to come out the question is though like how much it's going to come with context like usually these sorts of historical questions this is almost like a mirror image uh or it's sort of um

isomorphic to the UAP question in sense of how much this is catastrophic right disclosure which is all comes out all at once there's no story line necessarily attached there's no phase sort of narrative management that allows sort of you know people that don't pay attention to these things kind of understand it in a phased way that incorporates it into their mental models understand just the sky is and falling um versus you know there is a you know here it is there go deal with it um and I think there's going to

be twin impulses and different Power structures inside the Trump Administration that will be pushing in those different two directions right now it seems like the just let all out impulse is has the upper hand uhhuh and that seems to be you know what what I would expect from the sort of surprise um uh magnitude of the win like I think they were relatively confident they would win the presidency but I don't think they expected or were banking on having Unified Government um and so now that they do the sort of

aperture of possibility spaces have now sort of shifted and now that's sort that has a momentum to it and that momentum will likely play out until it you know until it triggers you other other problems potentially and then they might try to dial it back but right now we see seem to be in that momentum towards open up everything yeah and what do you think happens on the kind of geopolitical or foreign policy front you know I feel like Trump maybe the more armchair thing that like I would always kind of disagree with

with Trump on in his last campaign um was that he would always say things like you know uh Russia Ukraine wouldn't have happened if I were president like you know uh Israel know wouldn't be sort of blowing up if you know uh if I were president and I think on the Israel you know case the Abraham Accords which he engaged in were actually really positive and then you know maybe he did Putin did respect him more or something so I directionally maybe agree with him but like when it comes to the details and disentangling from these

sort of conflicts I think it's just way more complicated you know Vis us interests in Ukraine um you know our relationship with Israel historically and the sort of Leverage there it just it it doesn't feel like whose president really might even matter all that much and so what do you think happens there things are heating up with China obviously I mean think it's not settled which direction his foreign policy will take across these different theaters I think it's pretty clear Ukraine will be a negotiated settlement

um probably on unfavorable terms you know relative to you know a counterfactual for Ukraine but I think that's pretty much a clear signal that I've seen is yeah they're going to reach some sort of um settlement and then it's going to be about you know hundreds of billions of reconstruction contracts I think he's also sent a signal to BB that um you know he can go gloves off until gets elected and then he wants him to wrap up the conflict so I'd expect a surge in Lebanon over the next you know month or two and then that will wind

down and then we'll see what sorts of quote maximum pressure campaign gets restarted against Iran again you know unclear how that would whether reach a another negotiation settlement or whether you know he would do kind of his traditional Trump trumpian sort of brinkmanship right sort of like with North Korea threaten nuclear war fire and fury take us to the pretty close and then essentially become best buddies right walk across the DMZ theal so you know it's like I think as brinksmanship and you know kind of uncertainty he be even said like

would bring Bolton into the room because his his interlocutor head of state would know Bolton is like a Warhawk Maniac who would just ready to pull a trigger at a second's notice and so the fact that Bolton is in the room sort of like a negotiating TX I got this guying for War I rather not fight you but ready to go got your Budd there littleit loose canon good cop bad um so we'll see like a lot of this is p driven by Personnel China of course is the elephant in the room I think there is still a big debate um uh even within the

different Trump factions over like what should be the approach towards Trina there are some like you know very China Hawks um that want to sort of pivot away from these other theaters negotiate those settlements sort of concentrate our resources uh to contain China deter China and there's others who would just want to basically like this great power competition this increasing um sort of militancy and sort of tit fortat uh sanctions export controls Etc they're bad for business and we should just do a grand bargain with China that might

involve subtly selling Taiwan out but you know at the end of day it's a deal and a deal resets resolves tensions Etc so I think there was that is for me the biggest geopolitical macro question is which is those different China opinions kind of plays out um yeah he had a real split in his cabinet the last time around between uh kind of you know Wilbur Ross typ you he's close with uh schwarzman and stuff and like a lot schwarzman wasn't in his cabinet but like you had these guys who were like very pro-china and then you

had all these Hawks who were uh you know extremely you Josh Rogen book chaos under Heaven that describes this sort of split um and so yeah I'm curious to see what wins out this yeah and right now I mean I've been asking these questions other people that you would think would know were asking this question like who's going to be Trump's chinina team and it's like anybody like Trump doesn't know who his TR team is going to be right like this is the this is moment where all these different factions all the different people jockeying for

cabinet positions and other senior appointments the knives are out right they're just coming after each other right like Peter Navaro and Matt pottinger all these guys who were super hawkish and then yeah so Micha Pillsbury and then yeah then you have it seemed like sort of netted out that Trump was kind of hawkish on the trade stuff but then he was kind of led to sleep on covid and he had all these assurances from X that he wouldn't you know invade Taiwan and he was kind of tricked on the PPE question with covid and so yeah

it turned into this sort of schizophrenic foreign policy or something yeah but I also think on the part of this is going to be like geopolitics is often deeply connected to these economic and monetary shifts um there is I think somewhat nent but I've seen memos written that sort of try to cautify what would be like a dramatic geoeconomic shift that would be triggered in 2025 and this isn't even the Bitcoin stuff that would be that' like icing on that would be like you know kerosene on the fire but like a Nixon style shock where that has

essentially uh larger strategic Lo logic which is essentially um the US dominant Geo GE itical and economic position is is under challenge right we both have um domestic uh endogenous instabilities in terms of our financial system the increasing debt um costs uh that we're going to be committed the next few years and a sense of increasing Challenge from uh Innovation and Industrial ecosystem in Eurasia you know principally centered in China and this loose Alliance of Eurasian uh countries Russia Iran North Korea China that actually have

significant industrial technological um and sort of and energy resources they're they want to re challenge and sort of upset the Legacy kind of international economic and political uh geopolitical order so the logic is sort of okay how do you like hold the line right uh between kind of these this uh know Legacy you hegemonic system the US has built up um and and these sort of rising um revan's Challengers and the play is essentially to sort of uh make more explicit the function of us as a global Empire right as an imperial

dollar system and where we essentially control the access to Dollar credit and increasingly we can sort of gate access to our advanced technology ecosystem or our AI models and the associated infrastructure and you can imagine him setting up essentially a tech and tariff and security um umbrella where there's a there's a there's club if you want to get into the club you're going to have to pay right so if you want to get access to our Ai and infrastructure models if you want to get access know dollar system in a favor fashion

swap lines Etc if you want to um know have us reinforce and not abandon our security commitments to you well you're going to have pay and that payment might take the form of essentially a coerced swap of either either or and their gold reserves FX reserves which usually you know short-term uh bills um for Sentry bonds so that would help us ter out our debt right it would relieve some of this acute interest burden it would you know there's already some talk about you know Trump being trust you know like trust when like there was a guilts

market crisis right and she had to abandon some of her political um uh sort of you know projects because she had basically to deal with the disorderly um you know guilt market and so already you see the 10 year long end of the Y curve starting to spike so the question is okay how do you have essentially do geopolitical like yield curve control well you force those foreign pools of capital Sovereign wealth funds Etc to swap their short-term uh you know exposures in their gold for Sentry bonds and that importantly would be non-marketable

right so can't just sell them they can only PL uh you know repo them at the FED for par dollar liquidity if they run into any sort of uh dollar funding issues and that would be a pretty high leverage play and then if you get some of their gold and you can turn out your debt then you can do things like say remonetized gold right which is currently just like marked to you know 1970s uh you know what $35 an ounce so if you remark gold say to $5,000 an ounce you just now can know credit the treasury general account with a

trillion dollars of liquidity um and you can do a lot with that you could buy Bitcoin you could do strategic investments in manufacturing industrial base um you know just could fund a lot of those sorts industrial projects um and then threaten I don't think he's going to do Universal tariffs but threaten sort of company specific tariffs right to sort of intimidate and sort of you know threaten them and yeah hey if you're going to reshore friend Shore to Mexico well actually no you're going to friend Shore Ohio now right

right and then maybe we'll do some complicated you know back door subsidy right but like you'll get the thing domestic um I think that's what would expect is this but to do that you're essentially you're kind of pulling the rug on treasury market right which is the foundation of us geopolitical dominance the last 70 years so we'd essentially be admitting the The Jig Is up that like yes we're effectively imposing Financial repression in capital controls on our our on our allies and partners but that's what we got to do because

to win right and then there might be a whole separate you know subplot of this where Bitcoin gets monetized alongside gold or even instead of um but would have a similar effect maybe without the explicit geopolitical coercion because we don't actually have to like force the swap we can just essentially you know rapidly monetize Bitcoin at the expense of their existing Holdings and then maybe you know defray some of the domestic costs so it's mostly overseas you know Financial repression like any imperial system when

it runs into trouble right or it's getting it's getting challenged the first thing it does is cannibalizes the periphery to sort of reinforce the core it's like you all have know get Collective benefits in theory from being part of this imperial system we give you protection we Ure global trade and in exchange though you know we have to pay for this military that's going to deploy and secure these trade routes again it's a highrisk play because do we actually have the juice to do that right um can we actually tell the Europeans to

hand over their goals uh can we actually you know commit to the security side of it can we act it seems like in the horn um in you know of Africa the Middle East that like the houthis can basically block uh a major Maritime trading route indefinitely so it's like these are like where the paper plans at you know kind of the Elite back room door level you know ultimately have to be implemented and executed in the real world across all the instruments of National Power and I don't know if we've got the competency to do that um that's

a fascinating strategy though and uh Trump who's not a fan of NAFTA it almost sounds like a modern version of NAFTA where it's like you get the same sort of you know maybe defense opice or whatever but uh very different kind of you know monetary relationship and the UFO thing might play into that which is you know on the margin if it's like if we even want to hint that hey you know we've got some special stuff like you know might want to pay to get into this club right it's like a little inducement to it's like

hey you know might be doubting us maybe we're you know a bit A chaotic maybe we don't have the naval production juice that we used to have but we got some special stuff here and so you want if even the hope of getting access to it you got to get into the club that's kind of immediately where my mind went when you we're talking about AI it's like we've we've had conversations about possible you know secret off the books physics and you know materials all this stuff comes up in UFO land if we have access to that alongside AI that's a

pretty interesting Suite of asymmetric Advantage when it comes to defense and all sorts of technology and so do you think you almost seem to think that this might get used as leverage where it's like you get access to the goods but you have to play nicely I am trying to mentally model Trump as much much as I can right and this guy he's not a guy I think truly motivated about these Cosmic questions I don't know if he even you know has a framework for it his uncle John might have been but I think he understands almost

viscerally like what's a good bargaining chip like where does he how what leverage points does he have right and I think if he he's I believe been briefed on some aspects of his legacy programs I and of course you know there's speculation exactly how much he knows ETA but I'm pretty confident he knows at least broad Contours that this is real um I think his first reaction is going to be okay how do I use this right how do I leverage this and in my larger you know in my larger play here and I think it' be pretty obvious like

you know Ace in the Hole sort of Leverage um if you play it right because I don't know what other second and third order um details of that story come into play right there might be other other equities and other you know like Lando hints of like other drivers this um so it's an over deted question but just in this narrow slice of kind where this could sort of insert or how could it play into the geopolitical Dynamics of a trump Administration I think it would um you know have a would be seen as something to

leverage in a certain way yeah when he understands leverage and he's a good dealmaker and I think you know say what you will about the guy but uh historically I think a lot of his deals have made more sense on but if he criticizes deals made by the other side whether it was you know uh the Paris Accords or the Ben roads you know Obama Iran nuclear deal which you could say is partially responsible for where we are now and Trump does seem you know unpredictable it seems like he throws some some volatility into the system or

something but he acts very on behalf of the US I think in an aggressive way that he's just used to doing from his business career and I think he is is sort of good at that so it would make sense right if you have all this leverage that you're not aware of in the form of the UFO thing ideally you'd be interested in what's going on there but if I if accept that premise though it does make kind of a loose prediction of what form of disclosure to expect right you would expect the form of disclosure that would maximize type

of Leverage right so then you'd have to make some conditional assessments of okay what in the universe of stipulated information that's behind the curtain which subset of the information would would acre maximum leverage in this strategy and which would not and then I would expect that subset to be the part that gets released and the other information to be kept secret well is it like the nuclear thing a good analogy where it's like you have nuclear Trade Secrets but Nuclear Physics is sort of broadly diso disclosed or is that a counter lesson

where it's like no clus fukes took our you know actual nuclear Trade Secrets we were not too loose with that you know maybe we should be you know more buttoned up when it comes to UFOs well this yeah the the key answer to that question is really premised on how much knowledge Andor capability do we assume has already been leaked yep right um and if you read the language and you know it's coming out of the Senate you know in order to mitigate the possibility of foreign technology surprised the US government must broaden awareness of

quote historical exotic technology antecedence previously provided by the federal government for research and development purposes right so if you read if you parse that line it's like in order toate the possibility of foreign technology surprise y meaning in order to make the possibility that China and you know demonstrates they've got some stuff figured out the federal government must broaden awareness of historical exotic technology antecedants you know the stuff in Lock's basement um uh that had been previously provided by the

federal government for research and development purposes yep didn't say provide it to who it's you know the Lock's basement um but that's basically that is like the distilled logic of at least the Senate's view this of this tradeoff um meaning we've kept the stuff under locking key to do re you R&D for many decades but now we have to broaden awareness of those programs to mitigate China getting the jump on us yeah that's basically the story which is an admission that China has a baseline level of knowledge right because in the world

which they don't you then just keep the thing locked up in your Indiana Jones Vault you never talk about it with anybody but the world in which they do it becomes this game theory thing you need some broader awareness around the top you can't have it's not adaptive for americ National Security to have the average you know uh precocious stem student in Kentucky or whatever who's growing up uh just thinking that you know string theory is the only answer and that you know maybe there aren't some more interesting exotic Frameworks

and material and all of that yeah I mean when the US and Soviets really had the only industrial technological and scientific ecosystems for most of of the 20th century um and so like all the leading physics research then sort of Technology development transfer was taking place in relatively controlled State directed um ecosystems and you know there was I think a certain understanding over the cold war between the US and the Soviet systems U on those things there's a lot of you know um also early on in the Cold War there's only so

much there's only so many different branches of the sort scientific tree to explore and you had to spend 10 20 years just filling out the standard model of particle physics and you we could do the whole separate thing of where it went wrong in the 70s but then China is now like exploded on the scene in last 30 years churning out really good scientists engineers and a whole endogenous ecosystem they're doing their own independent scientific Frontier research right their own space exploration their own satellites

own um you know radio receivers their own nutrino experiments their like own Quantum stuff like they've got their own independent they've developed their own pretty quickly their own independent scientific and Tech Tree they're going at the Dark Side of Moon yes they've launched tons of Mass to space yeah and so from the US's perspective like they've managed to contain for the last 70 years essentially the tech tree that's branching that was growing essentially in the world right and then it could prune branches in various ways

now there's a new tree that has sprouted very quickly and is you know exploring and is not being pruned and in fact maybe those branches that we pruned are now being like supercharged with investment uh and you can't do anything about it so you've been in your tree they've been growing their tree yeah like that if plays out for another 5 10 years you're going to be in real trouble yep and that's I think was precipitating now the last 10 years of disclosure stuff that's always that's my take I mean felt like I'm

sort of firing blindly in the space sort of covering it sometimes where like as you know I've covered some of the you know possible branches of physics that have been lost and I think I'm doing this patriotic thing because like I look at the Civil side you know ing requirements to build some of these super basic experiments and I'm like adversaries have to that this like snapshot of what we had you know 70 years ago or whatever so I think publicizing this stuff is like extremely good net benefit uh but it just

feels extremely uncoordinated like the whole world I'm curious to get your take on this like the whole world of UFOs or whatever I would assume there be like one dude kind of in charge like the whole thing and it's there I think foms and Gatekeepers to those foms but I don't think they're well-coordinated at all I think it's a cargo cult that's been running for the last 70 years but curious to get your take yeah this telling the historical story and all of its various chapters is probably beyond my Ken but like I have a certain um

10,000 foot level take which was you know essentially from World War II era through like the 6s um this was essentially a federal these were these Federal projects right the vanar bush era you know Co Ed you know I'm sort of my basic um analytical methodology is sort of what was the um structure of other you know visible institutions of research development of government intelligence Etc and then assume that the basic level of competence and the managerial um structures and their alignment to us Democratic power

structures like probably is carries through to these Legacy programs right and that you know again this kind of is consilient with what David gush was saying how these kind of were tucked underneath the architecture of secrecy for the Manhattan Project M you know um atomic energy act you know this sort of set the institutional framework for these for these programs in the 40s and 50s and 60s then I think there was a shift right and that shift you could speculate by what was happening behind the curtain but I think you could just

see the visible shift that took place in the other aspects of our institutional and political economy where it was you know a pretty radical restructuring right of the you know it was Nixon shock but then you also had um know the Mala stagflation in the 70s you had um and then you had this massive transition to sort of global NE liberalization right the privatization of a lot functions and you had in the CIA just to take that as a concrete example you had Carter essentially Purge like the entire senior ranks of the CIA when he came into

office and one of those hundreds senior Cia officers do many of whom were probably presiding over aspects of Legacy program in an official capacity you know and they were like managing this on behalf of their you know responsibilities in the federal government now they've been fired right and maybe it was merited they were doing a lot of shady stuff that the government was like we can't do this anymore you guys are know rotten fruit we need to kick you out you know those guys didn't just disappear they have a lot of skills

have a lot of connections they know exactly how to run covert operations generate lots of sources black money corrupt and influence senior and very influential people around the world and without you know certain skills they're going to apply those skills and then but they the critical decision is now they don't longer have an official attachment to Institutional bureaucracy that's aligned with you know us State interest right and I think that's where it starts to delaminate and the political economy of these programs probably then gets split

to a certain extent there's the part that the US government is able to hold on to in some fashion and then there's the part that they're not able to hold on to explicitly and then there's this sort of uneasy Evolution over many decades I don't exactly know how it's evolved in the more recent era um but I think it's pretty clear when you know read into what David grush is saying is that you know effectively know there's certain elements of the US government that have been sort of Rogue right like that and even the

defense industrial based um parts of this collaborators may not be like Lockheed is involved right as like Lockheed CEO but like you know essentially loose networks of individuals that um for various reasons kind of associate to manage these things and and that's I think the difficult part is trying to sus out how much of this and this is why the UF disclosure act explicitly targeted and domain right for things held in private hands um and that's I think the read that sort of put into all the sort disclosure momentum um and the official

legislation action is like to first order the interest of Jill Brands and the Rubios etc for last several years has not really been disclosure it's been accountability yeah it's finding out that there's Rogue programs that they had no idea it were in existence that were controlling groundbreaking world shaking information and their first order of business is trying to like create mechanisms sort of try to get the official structures of government to sort of reabsorb and Rec take take back some degree of control

over these activities yep yeah it's more a civilian oversight question which is like I actually feel somewhat conflicted about you know I feel more sure that like the American population should understand a broader deeper ontological truth when it comes to our reality that that feels like an obvious good to me and then where I'm sort of unsure is like I don't think Congress is super competent I was in that room last year at the testimony and it's like if you were to manipulate or scop a group of people and like you know or just find a really

corrupt group of people like that would be it like these people they're not very smart and they're uh you know can sway them very easily and like I don't know if they're more competent than the locki to northrip Executives I think think people should know about this stuff and so maybe to some extent like whatever limited Hangouts are occurring Visa these Prime Contra contractors need to speed up be more effective and better but yeah that would be my controversial take is like yeah I you know maybe in 1850 or something I'd be more bar

bullish Congress but right now I'm not I think their 11% approval rating sort of says it all so I mean this is not even a UFO question this is basic uh you know political philosophy which is you know do we in general defer to uh competent technocratic managers to make important decisions on behalf of the rest us or do we defer to elected representatives who are representative of the people who may not be very well educated enlightened technocrats right and this is this is the age-old question right of like how do we find a

balance in a modern very sophisticated very complex society of maintaining a form of participatory democracy maintaining a form of government that is inherently legitimate and accountable to the people right the government is um of buying for the people it's not of buying for locki program managers right um that is the foundation of our constitutional republic that's the inherent logic of our social contract I think to abrigate that um you know willy-nilly would be would be you know a one-way ratchet but I I also agree with you that like there

is there's a reason why we filled out these these bureaucracies and you know technocratic structures in order to manage the complexity of Modern Life that yeah the average house Republican or house Democrat on a subcommittee who's getting like a 10-minute briefing from a 24-year-old before the Committee hearing is not the person you want to make these like important you know structural decisions but you want to ideally be like a balance between of the people that know information and make those decisions that like they're

ultimately accountable to somebody right if they screw up so can get fired they can be held to a public tribunal right yeah maybe and it's the executive BR I don't know yeah but it it is a tricky question and I think the bigger possible issue is the veneer of you know elected representatives when in fact we actually have the participatory democracy no it's post post citizens united I mean look at Mike Turner who represents St Ohio and you know has you locki northr Boeing on his quote unquote cap table his his donor list and so it's like uh

you know that he's not a real acting on behalf of oligarchic interests of special interests in that case so yeah I mean there's a political philosopher the 20th century named uh Sheldon Woolen who had this idea of sort of inverted totalitarianism right that like traditional totalitarian structures that we looked at you know had an obvious hierarchical you know dictatorial um uh Arrangement of power and in our system it's you know again this is more on the extreme who's a kind of extreme Progressive liberal but like he his diagnosis was

that we've actually constructed for ourselves like an invert of totalitarianism where um we have the veneer of particip democracy but really like the actual structures of Power are quite concentrated they're just hidden yes right they're not on top they're underneath right and that um that makes it much more hard to challenge cuz you know nobody likes being told what to do by you know your boss right but if your option set is just inherently constrained before you come to make a decision by piece folks or forces you have no idea existed

well you can just might not even know right you just these are your options A and B pick yeah right r d go do do you know uh Danny shean this episode is sponsored by delete me with the 2020 4 election coming up online privacy is no longer a luxury it's necessity political polarization is at an all-time high and personal information like your phone number and address is easy to find online sadly this opens the door to identity theft harassment or even politically motivated threats that's why I trust delete me to

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com jessie2 and using the code jesse2 at checkout thanks to delete me for sponsoring today's episode use my link in the description to start protecting your data today uh I don't know I'm personally but I've obviously I've watched his yeah uh multiple three-hour long podcasts encyclopedic encyclopedic and it's like his kind of worldview I mean first off if you want to know who killed JFK you should listen to you know those part yeah his uh the S Force and Howard Hughes getting deputized by K Nixon under yeah all that exactly which is wild because

it to me it's it feels high probability to be true because it so comports with priors I had around you know read like Devil's chessboard by you know David talit and you know had watched the Oliver Stone stuff and I'm like okay it's like dullas probably had it out for for JFK and then it's like Danny's just filling in the details with names dates a specific chronology so it's fascinating but to go your point around you know the wen's point around a small group being actually insidiously kind of in control uh Sheen's

entire history of American intelligence at least you know post OSS is that the CIA got formed uh at the behest of this Brown Brothers Herman group this investment group where on the cap table you had all the robber bearing so the kind of oligopolistic you know control families or whatever in the US uh uh basically you the CIA was almost like it was you know the veneer of like American National Security but it was really like protect our interests you know and so then if you look at American foreign policy over the last 70 80 years it's like way

more driven by maintaining a threshold of you know crude petroleum or whatever then then meets the eye and so like how much how of this stuff is just being driven by like this small group of people that you know I this sounds a little tinfoil hat but that they've kind of existed intergenerationally over the last you know Century I mean don't know how conspiratorial it is if you just look at all of human history right like human his history and all of our political systems tend to um you know in a physics language they tend to

form sort of condensates tight factions that uh you know once they know happen in whatever process of power uh accretion stick into those positions of power and nobody likes to give up power they want to find ways magnify that power institutionalize it formalize it and hand it down that's like the story of humanity right once we started um building hierarchical Control Systems um you know out of the hunter gatherer to agrarian Evolution so like this is the basic sociological pattern of humanity like quotequote enlightened

Dem ocracy is a relatively recent thing and it's a and belief system it's a social fiction in sense right social fictions have a lot of material power when people believe in them um but they're buttressing up against this sort of you know multi- Century just embedded historical pattern right and I think that's been the that's been I think you know I'm not like America's truly just a hidden fascist country and everything about democracy is just a painted veneer um because I think you can look at history where like you know the quote Maybe

power structure lost right like they didn't have sort of univalent power over over the evolution of our society and this election felt like some sort of an example yeah I think it's also become more complicated right I think back in that era from you know maybe the know the Reconstruction Era to Robert Barons to Brown Brothers Herman to World War I and II like you know American economy was like a tightly tightly wound you know sort of New York Finance industrial capital and you know small number of founding families and

and Industrial Empires you know it was very clear like American politics was just de facto you know arms of their apparatus right U like that there was no pretense that we really had a democratic form of government in that an era like we fought a Civil War and they were like all right we need to reconstitute things it's going to be done through investment it's going through you know stitching together with railroads and um you know industrial expansion Etc that's going to have come and directed managed by essentially these industrial

um systems that are controlled by a small number of elite family uh Empires and that's just you know so then what they did and then we're like all right we need to win World War One those guys are going to do it and I think the where we got really in trouble though was when those families started to then muck around in European politics and started to help fund you know uh aligned interest groups in say Germany the 20s uh that SED the seeds if not directly catalyze the Nazi party yeah right which is what happened the Union

Bank funded the Nazis and then I think dallis was part of financing the Nazis as well he was like nor I mean we created them basically right because we were worried about the bik taking over the national social the National Socialist movement was you know it again also came out of this kind um similar Vibe the German version of it was kind of this occultic uh set of um you know like theosophic uh clubs essentially and there was a lot of you know in the US yeah we there was a lot of the elites were very much into the occult sort of

you know seances and similar sorts of Vibes so they all had these and you that but what was it like the secret Destiny of America like that manly P hall book that you know we'd be the The Shining City on the hill for rest of the world or whatever and it doesn't take it doesn't much for like Elites in different societies to all of a sudden become ripped by certain C Cult of belief um and when they have lots of money that can material effects on hinges of history and I think that's you know a long story about how that created Nazism Hitler

kind of rose to power but um that then I think again these are like contingent uh ratchets and then you know it puts these these bureaucracies now that we have think we think of bureaucracies in a much more um uh like de personalized fashion now like the CIA and FBI all these administrative systems and they are like they massive systems of rules and org structures yearly budgets and government accountability and congressional committees and you know we have the you know Francis fukiyama project of State creation is sort of the

depersonalization of State functions they become formalized they structured repeatable inspectable accountable Etc and you know when States Decay they tend to become more personalized they can become much more um internally weakened by factions where their principal forms of accountability or loyalty are not to the organization it's to their own secret you know Club of people and I think you know would say the Arc of these institutions was like they were created by these these you know essentially they were fully personalized at the beginning

right the dullas brothers Etc um and then you know we sort of built State structures independent large complicated bureaucracies you know over the course of 20th century to sort of fight the Cold War and we had to Marshall large scale resources to do that you can't just rely on you know dullas Brothers to just run around and do weird [ __ ] you have to have like systems of you know processes and memos you know like big projects um you need to now bring in folks like Howard Hughes right you need to kind of like have you know these

low more Explorer these are pretty expensive endeavors um and I think now we've reached the other like that Arc has come down and now they're like being repersonalized um and you know that can happen whoever is repersonalized it can either do that in a project of like reinvigoration Reformation right that like they need to these structures got too unwieldy it's like software code that has a bunch of you know rot in it and you need to like this assume it's called um called bom's law which is just you know uh like code eventually

rots right it's like a characteristic like time scale so any institution has like codified rules and regs they usually only go in One Direction and you know I think that's the project that we're seeing maybe play out is like okay how do you go into this the set of code of our institutions and you know that there maybe half of it is like dead weight code but you don't know what's like what's loadbearing right yeah um but going back to like this the CIA sort of Arc is a I think that was kind of the thing you had this sort of purge

individuals that were sort of had built the bureaucracy and now had all these connections and they just went out into the private sector and just started to build those systems person more personalized systems but now out of view right and I think that is where you read the Tom dong books he sort of points to this idea of there essentially being you know official government programs and then non-government programs and that from the advantage point of someone like marar Rubio or someone like Senator jilan would be kind of like extremely

intimidating yes like I would not these people go a senator but do they really know what they're going up against right that's a different question well it's kind of part and parcel with the history of country per what we're talking about like if you look at The shean Narrative of what happened with JFK Howard Nixon operationalized Howard Hugh Hughes is kind of an extension the National Security apparatus as a private Aerospace contractor if you look at know the follow-up story it's JFK scatters the CIA to wind he

or threatens to fires Dulles douis goes from his perch at Brown Brothers Herman at a private company re operationalizes the S Force which Howard he created to go after JFK and then the final example which touches on the you know this idea that Jimmy Carter purged a lot of the CIA is that I think a lot of those guys ended up at um have you heard of the Carlile group oh yeah so like you read jock fet's Diaries you know he publishes his Diaries Forbidden Science volumes 1 through five and I think it's like volume three or four he always has

lunch with all these people and you know these like spooky Insider types and they're constantly like look at the Carlile group and then he goes again the Carlile group like it it's this recurring Trope and so I sometimes wonder if post uh you know Carter Purge of the deep State a or CIA a lot of this stuff ended up you know with with them and the final weird connection there is I are you familiar with this Mark mandish Brad Sorenson story you have to remind me on that one so so Mark mandish is a famous Aviation

illustrator and he has a buddy named Brad sson who's in Aerospace and he's going to this you know air show in uh California and he gets taken to so he's he's with this guy who's prominent kind of Italian um Defense Finance here as is the way he describes it or def defense Guy and um he gets taken to kind of like a back of the house show and um they say we're going to show you the real stuff and they fly him to Palmdale and um show them a bunch of you know really exotic crafts some like one-off crafts like you know the Aurora or

Astra these are sort of you know famed possible locked protot types that like uh uh were commissioned for like a year or two and then they were kind of taken out and then he shows them what calls a flux liner or an alien reproduction vehicle and these are bell-shaped or Acorn shaped Vehicles there are three of them they actually seem to have wear and tear on them as if they' been flown and um I'm friends with a couple of really good researchers who think that the Italian guy is Frank carluchi and Frank carluchi was deputy

director of the CIA under Jimmy Carter and then became Secretary of Defense under Reagan and he's very associated with the Carlile group and so anyway all of this is to say maybe there's sort of revolving door between Private Industry and CIA where it's like you can you get on one you say know hey CIA give up the goods they put it into Private Industry and then you get on Private Industry and then they they you know put it back in secret compartmentalized you know um government apparatuses or something it's this game

of wack-a-mole it's this infinite shell game or something yeah and I think you know I think that's very plausible um and even in more prosaic circumstances that sort of relationship is um is extremely uh if you just take today quote great power competition right um there's lots of say Port facilities around the world that um we a want to ensure us has favorable access to and B we deny China and Russia access to is the US government US military intelligence Community going to literally go around the world and buy up control

manage and run all these ports no who is right so how do you ensure that those private interests are motivated incentivized to do that onf of American Security interest takes a project a lot of money takes organization relationships right that's what you would expect right in that very prosaic pure straight down the middle geopolitical competition y just apply that basic logic to any other competitive regime of even higher stakes and you would imagine the layers of involvement and funding that would be deployed um and I think this is

this then if I'm going to extend my analogy like okay the decay in 70s and ' 80s what would happened really in if we're trying to point this line of in Korea kind um from industrial capital in the 20th century to really what became Finance capital and international finance capital in the 20th century um the later half of 20th century and you assume the basic template that you're just pointing at right Carl O was one example this big private Equity conglomerate yeah um and again it's less The Entity itself and

more the individuals right who can come and go and who you know they have certain skills and knowledge expertise in crafting certain corporate structures and Deals arranging sources of financing right that's the that's the skill it's not corporate entity per se and so that can move it can evolve and that change names and labels you know at any time um well one interesting thing though is okay like everyone points to the you know big baddies car group right it's like they have to actually make money yeah they actually they're like you know

these things are expensive I don't see them selling any alien reproduction Vehicles yeah right like where's the money coming from right like who's is there's money going in right where is it coming from and like you know one of the important functional requirements for any operation is funding yeah right there's two sources of funding in general right there's like official funding could even be classified right but it's coming from public coffers it's going from taxpayer money going to the government and then

the government is shaving off a slice in a classified budget to go fund secret stuff and then there's you know black money there's off the books money there's money that's generated from non-official government activities not taxation not debt issuance it's coming from private sector sources either private sector criminal operations right which we've seen examples of in the 20th century right drug running to F operations or you know Legal Financial op you know Financial activities trading investment that you know is generating

surpluses to fund these activities Y and so that's why I would pay more attention to like where in the more Common Era the last 20 30 years of where are there like blackbox sources of funding uh where are there people in this world that are just printing money yeah uh that have you know plausible connections to these programs speaking of which my old colleague Eric Weinstein went on Joe Rogan and I think exasperated at the lack of reception his own sort unified You Know Field Theory of Everything um uh geometric Unity he took

a couple of shots at Renaissance Technologies and so you know the late Jim Simons uh you know is this incredible cryptographer mathematician he has this fund out in Long Island that seems to just predictably at high scale uh return you know I think 30% year-over-year or something uh and so Weinstein is on Rogan actively speculating that this is housing a sort of secret physics program involving all the top differential geometers in the US what do you think Matthew I mean if such a thing were to exist that's exactly

where it would exist yeah right because well one Jim Simons used to work for the NSA he was a Navy cryptologic um you know code breaker and nobody is ever there's no thing as an X NSA guy right just in general um and he's also one of the world's like leading mathematicians physicists um and yeah essentially controlled the Stony Brook uh math department and really effectively exerted a lot of influence over Stony Brook University itself um and so turned his uh hedge fund again this extremely you know just out

of the out of distribution successful year-over-year never down year um trading operation just functions as an immense black box that has probably the you know highest concentration of uh physics and math geniuses uh anywhere in the planet and you look at what else Jim Simons was really engaged in right he set up the Simons Foundation um which is probably like one of the leading private sector sources of um sort philanthropic research in for philanthropic funding for fundamental science research in uh you know life sciences synthetic biology

artificial intelligence frontiers of physics computational ma uh computational Sciences mathematics um really interesting kind of Frontier breakthrough ideas across these like critical disciplines and there's interesting like coincidences right the head of the Simons Foundation um guy named uh Dr David spurgle he was tapped to be the chair of NASA UAP working group um and uh Stony brick University was um uh engineered essentially a uh joint venture essentially to manage Brook Haven National Lab with Patel Memorial

Institute that partnership was personally engineered by Jim Simons himself to get Stony Brook in a position to jointly manage a department of energy National Lab that does breakthrough physics research and has you know they do lots of classified stuff um and they're pretty close by to his hedge fund operations so you know it doesn't you don't have to like be the conspiracy theorist drawing the red dots of yarn to be like here's a black money-making machine started by a guy deeply connected to the NSA that's also

like a super physics genius and it can attract the smartest physics and math people on the planet to work for his blackbox money machine he also then happens to you know effectively have a lot of influence over Department of energy National Lab um and his you know guy running private Research Foundation and fundamental physics gets tapped to run the UAP working group for NASA yeah a working group that sort of says you know nothing to see here like we we'll keep an open mind but there's probably nothing here which I find interesting

yeah I mean don't know have no Smoking Gun it just seems quite a curious set of coincidences um and I know this is you know and it's all personalities at this point right because I know the famous you podcaster physicist astronomer um Brian keing is uh who's famously kind of a skeptic talks a lot about uaps and kind of always downplays it whoever he talks to he's um the godson of Jim Simons and his good friends with Eric Weinstein it's very interesting yeah I don't know what it means but I find fascinating it's exactly what I would do if was

the government I was like hey need to set up a both funding source as well as a private research group to look at some aspects of this program yeah like it would kind of be incompetent if these Legacy programs actually do exist yes it would be kind of incompetent not to pull somebody like him into it totally it's like exactly this is what you need basically uh that's fascinating I mean yeah King's always been super cool with me but he's definitely he seems very I don't think he's I think he's operating in bad faith

he's definitely anti the UFO thing yeah um well that's fascinating in '92 as well so they have a particle accelerator at Brook Haven National Labs and then they also do nuclear stuff and um in '92 a lot of the towns people around uh Brook Haven said that there was a UFO crash that was actually collected by the facility there as well so that would be an interesting connection because as you know UFOs seem to specifically like if there is a correlation between anything it's nuclear assets they seem to show around

both civilian nuclear grids and weapons facilities yeah no that seems pretty definitive at this point yeah it's very interesting so do you think think like uh because Carlile group has a lot of Defense interests right it's this multinational conglomerate do you think there's anything to The Jock Vala Theory you know given your kind of analysis of there was kind a you know this Carter purging and then you have Ben rich as well who's director of uh Skunk Works uh lenting that there's almost this runaway of control when it

comes to quote unquote an international board of directors on the UFO topic and then there's like an American outlet that presumably he's sort of a part so I mean have no evidence one way the other and it's hard to say how stable these um systems have been over time uh and exactly how much like managerial control actually exists right cuz I don't know like what the right men model is for like the organizational like hierarchy here right how much of it is a board of directors that is approving line item budgets right like

basically the Tom dong narrative right where he's like got this basically whatever the mainard group and it's like yeah like 12 guys in a boardroom and they're like this we're going to do we're going to coup here it's kind of like you know the Trope of like Illuminati guys in the room right smoking their cigar as being yeah oh yeah the secret UFO project where are we on that one right I don't know like that's a scenario I don't know if it's for me like the most plausible scenario for this is like that there actually

a such a tightly integrated vertical control structure as opposed to maybe like pieces of it because it's hard human institutions as you seen like they're hard to they're keep together yeah right they're hard to kind of it takes a lot to like pull complicated operation and keep every part and piece of it aligned you take it's you know there's no matter what secret institution you're in there's problems right how do the people at top ensure that the people at bottom are doing what people at the top want them to do right and not lying them

or carving off a piece of their own or like you know so either need need coercion or you need inducement at a very high level to keep all the sort of layers in any bureaucratic system aligned with the mission and objectiv set by the people at top and the thing about secrecy it can uh make some of those solving principal problem is actually harder right because you actually can't get too much reporting coming up the chain everything that's happening because that's a security risk you can't really be itemizing and documenting having

decision memos made at every you know Deputy project manager up right the chain and then El comes in a big binder at the top well that binder gets loose the whole thing falls apart right so there needs to be compartmentalization and the way you know reason why we run C covert operations in any intelligence service like you don't don't have everybody like read in all the way up right you have like local know chief of station and maybe a few two guys at headquarters that know what's going on and it's the people in

the field doing the stuff and then only maybe you know bare hints of it get sent up the chain right because that's how you protect really sensitive operations so I just don't know how they could actually structure an organization that's effectively managed by a small number of people over time I I might I think it would be it would be um very heterogeneous it would be very sort of like horizontal and there would be like maybe the bare minimum measures of like intimidation and like you know Extreme Measures to impose some degree of

of cohesion but I don't know this is like pure speculation of just like no matter what secret group it's G to going to be subject these basic organizational y Dynamics like regardless right so you studied physics at John's Hopkins and uh C can I think speak a little closer to the metal than a lot of there's a kind mushy brained you know everything is everything uh amateur physicists myself included by the way in UFO world and so it'll be good to speak you about this I think even the conversation we having about the atomic

stuff that's an example of you could call it like high energy physics right and so um that or particle accelerators which again there's one at Brook Haven obviously you have large hydron collider and others then you have the work of you know Tesla towns of brown so super high voltage across short distances do these all represent kind of anomalies uh that are an inroad to a more complete version of physics or do you know where in your opinion physics might have gone wrong and you know where we might be able to find another Branch that's

productive yes uh can go off in a few different tangents there um because yeah and I guess stepping back right my like I do think the physics part of this is the most important part of it because almost by assumption any advanced intelligence of any arbitrary nature that we're encountering uh that displays capabilities that we don't have are Downstream of their knowledge reality right that's what our civilization is just Downstream of our knowledge reality right we figure out you know a tower we we've construct a tower of

knowledge which is understanding the degrees of freedom that are available to us in this existence and then we engineer uh you know that's what technology is it's just essentially applying that knowledge of the degrees of freedom available to us in reality and so what we're you know witnessing with these um uaps is a demonstration of that knowledge and so if you want to understand who or what why how all those questions are going to be Downstream of they know something about reality that we don't yes and if you

understand like where they came from or what their intentions might be what their capabilities are you just it comes straight down to the bare question of like well what do they know and by definition that were for us to bridge from our current knowledge to what we think they quote unquote know requires is going to have move beyond our current conceptual paradigms at physics cuz we know our current conceptual paradigms of physics do not apparently give us anything that can do this maybe it can get close there's some you know maybe the B

brown Bells fi like it's oh a little trick right but is it everything is it the all does represent all these observables I'm not sure all right is it more maybe there some secret knowledge that we have we developed Advanced propulsion systems based off of plausible maybe probable but like there's a large potential uh ladder of capability that you're going to be that we could climbing right and we just happen to be know we're here maybe Advanced uh aerospace companies have gotten a little bit further up but there could be a lot

that's further above that right um say again this is all just like uh preface material to talk about physics where everyone's eyes will start glazing over um because yeah I broadly agree with the thesis of Eric in terms the sociology of where physics went wrong in the 70s and even now it's become a common accepted talking point by like the leading lights of strength the Like Larry uh Larry suskin just went on K mle podcast basically it was quite shocking to hear this guy uh you know Leading Light of strength Theory guy you know

getting towards the end of his career he's just like yeah it was complete fail failure it's basically pointless everyone should start over yeah it's like bro like that's the entirety of the physics discipline that you're saying is a complete failure yeah like that's dramatic statement to make right and I don't know most people pay attention to physics and just kind of a bunch of nerds in their AG Towers you know writing scribbling and whatnot but here you know that to me is like that's that's the end right okay you now

you have Larry basically admitting the whole thing was a waste um and now he even explicitly calls for you know we need to look at new paradigms need to look at you really need widen in the aperture here um although he doesn't quite but in the same breath he kind of dismisses the apparent Alternatives that have been thrown together right like geometric Unity or anybody else he's like wolf from yeah he's like I think haven't really paid attention to that right so like well do now you should have an open mind if your

thing fails it's bizarre to me like I don't I'm not a practicing physicist it's not my job I'm just intellectually curious about it I studied in college but even I try to pay attention and read these things I don't have to the professional competence to adjudicate you know the technical merits but I'm trying to like familiarize myself with Garrett Le's stuff uh with um Sabina stuff with wolf and really it's done by Jonathan Gard with Eric Weinstein um caal dyal sets Carlo Carlo relli luk gravity like I try to

pay attention to all this stuff it's just it matters to me like you this should matter to you this is your job absolutely well but it's also you don't need super technical chops to adjudicate something on a high level I think this is like this issue with string theory where it's like well you need to be a string theorist to somehow say that the thing isn't working no you don't can just be like empirically it hasn't really touched reality like we really can't do much with string theory that almost is the dimension reduction

necessary to zoom out and see the for for the trees and say no actually this just doesn't work and I don't don't think that require I mean you have way more knowledge than the average person I think the average person can just say that yeah like there's this whole separate branch of fundamental physics that has sort of gone a very different direction which is don't assume background space time at all assume SpaceTime itself is emergent right assume essentially not a continuous SpaceTime but a discreet structure and that what we observe as

continuous SpaceTime is actually an emerging higher level phenomenon right just like the um property of water that we call Liquid is not a uh lower level property it's an emergent as a result of the um behavior discret constituents EG h2l molecules those thing is like liquidity or a water liquid at the level of individual h2l molecule it's only when you gather a bunch of H2 molecules together and then you have an observer that is cor scening all the information in that system that the property of liquid emerges mhm so I've been attracted to

that sort of direction physics I was really attracted to you know the original version of this it was formulated by a guy named Lee smolen uh and his first attempted something called luk quanum gravity uh he worked with some other collaborators Carlo relli to a certain extent and um there's another attempt doing like causal dynamical sets and the idea is okay can you just prescribe like a very kind of simple um geometric structure and can you um Define me on that discret geometric structure that then in a su

suitable limit give you something more like a continuous space right and so there's details associated with L CRI gravity that were a bit more um so the basic motivation there was like essentially it's background independent that's like the basic distinction so strength theory is a background dependent Theory it assumes a background structure a background geometric manifold that's continuous um or at least has these uh sort of topological properties that they you know Define in terms of clal manifolds or whatever ever and uh the other this

Branch was like no we're going to not going to assume any background space in fact we're not going to assume space at all we're going to assume something more um abstract something more fundamental and then we're going to try to um see if we can in a suitable limit recover a continuous structure and so I won't go too far into Loop gravity I think it is a bit more constrained in how it was set up similar with Co causal dynamical set theory there was a little bit too much structure built in at the beginning in terms of defining the

boundaries of these loops and whatever a much more interesting um attempt at this sort of larger project trying to you know not assume anything right in physics and trying to get as much um that recovers what we currently see in physics out of like the very most minimal starting point right and so Stephen Wolfram who's kind of a controversial physicist he had this early idea back in the 90s he put it into his a new kind of science book kind of starting with very simple graphs right and could you generate something that looked like physics by

just sort of evolving very simple graphs right just abstract graph networks and the graphs he started with were sort of called they were trivalent uh networks which had basically also like some predescribed structure they had to be basically sort of basic triangular geometry um he was able to show some interesting things but then he kind of got distracted whatever back in during just before covid in 2019 um there's a separate researcher named Jonathan Gard amazing brilliant guy like everyone should watch his videos he's also a very

lucid clear communicator and has deep Phil philosophical um insights that he he he brings to his funomenal physics research um highly recommend all of Jonathan guard's stuff here and everything I'm going to say from now on is basically me trying to like recapitulate and like in you know 30 IQ points lower version of his his stuff here so the basic idea is these hypergraphs is to start with you the simplest thing you can imagine right which is just like a point that's connected to another point right and maybe another point so you can have just

like a simple you know graph right and the the key though is like there's a directed Edge so instead of just a line from a point to you have an era right and so just imagine you have like a simple and again you can look at the videos and there's better explanations because I'll butcher it trying to do it without much of a prop here but like simple graph that has directed edges well you can write there's certain rules that you can imagine applying to that graph rewrite the that set of relationships that from State one to state two delete

this Edge you know from here to add a add a new point and an edge between that new point and here so just a basic set of abstract rewriting rules apply to this arbitrary class of what they're called hypergraphs because they have directed edges right and so just starting with that basic idea right of just graphs that you have there's certain rules you could apply to those graphs to rewrite them right um and that is equivalent to uh another set of objects called uh string set substitution systems which you can

actually um write down all the information in that graph essentially as a set of of strings right like you label all those points and you basically just have an edge as just a binary relation between those two points like a they're in a set together and so you can Define you know a graph certain graph like this and a rewrite rule just trans transforms that set of strings with the certain labels and relationsship between them into a different set of strings with certain relations between them and that's like it's like a purely combinatorial um uh

structure right it's just abstract uh lab of symbols that are being Rewritten to a new set of abstract symbols right so it's extremely abstract right how does this touch on physics whatever well it turns out like just building from that basic purely combinatorial theoretic or abstract um hypergraph re writing system um you can and this was their physics project this was their key results is that um you can recover quantum mechanics in general relativity but in a very interesting way so the key premise though is that um there's a

certain assumption right which is something called causal invariance which is kind of equivalent to what we call like um uh sort of local gauge coari and generativity if you imagine you can rewrite this graph structure uh in you know with a certain rule so you just have like one rule that says you know rewrite something a part of the graph that looks like this change it to a part of the graph that looks like this well in any arbitrary hyper graph there could be many different ways of applying that rule and you're like

well which way do we it well actually it what that does if it generates you know apply in all possible ways right so you generate essentially what's called a multi-way system so you imagine like the state of the graph at this time and say there's only two different ways of applying that same rule well it's going to going to generate two versions of the of that graph so now it essentially splits right and now you have a graph where it's the rules been applied in version one and a graph that's been applied in version two those are

different states of the system and you can do that again right maybe there's four different ways so you get this Branch right so you get this multi-way system that branches and what they've shown is and this getting you know there's like multiple hours of lectures I could you know that look at to sort of work at the mathematics what that implies as you start to analyze that structure is branching it sounds familiar like sort of quantum mechanics right and so it turns out that you can Define certain measures right so the main

mathematical breakthrough from Gard was actually realizing that there's certain tricks that you can apply from other branches of mathematics that allow you to kind of take this discreet structure and uh generate entially discreet versions of the results that we have in continuous uh mathematics right so in general relativity it's defined over manifolds and you know Einstein field equations are defined in terms of things like the Ricky um tensor uh and the Ryan manifold so they have a certain metric that you can lay on this

sort of smoothly differentiable topological manifold and there's a certain you know set of mathematical Machinery that's been really worked out that's basically what the inside field equations are defined in terms of so gar was able to show in two sets of papers one on the sort of generativity side one on the quantum clinical side that if you just um analyze the causal uh graph of this evolving um multi-way system that you can Define discrete measures on this causal graph that um converge in the limit to uh Onin field equations right so you can

recover like the discret version of of the of Ricky tensor you can define a discret version of the Ry manifold and the kind of intuition you can think about this is like imagine you have a bunch of you know there's no space there's just a bunch of abstract you know nodes connected other and you can okay well what's the dimension of that thing like SpaceTime has a dimension right like we have three degrees of freedom um well if you actually you can Define Dimension by essentially growing out a ball uh in on this discrete structure we

essentially are counting the number of nodes that you hit uh at sort of n number of steps and essentially Dimension is correlated to the volume uh which is just a measure of the number nodes as a function of the number steps and so if that grows essentially to the square then you're in a three dimensional right CU that's essentially the the inverse Square law right that's inverse Square law is a function of the fact we live in three dimensions right um you know there's just if grow out a ball in space like the volume will

will will grow as a function a square of the radius right and so that is what he able to show essentially is defining a bunch of discret equivalent measures on this hypergraph structure and then with those uh those measures um essentially Rec reconstruct a discrete version of theine field equations and that essentially in the limit uh of the system um a certain Observer that can't see the critical piece of this is that an observer a part of that system an observer is a piece of this yeah an observer can't see

or an observer that can't see or measure all those indiscret all very like lowlevel changes to the hypergat structure essentially is equivalencing them right and that equivalen saying is very similar to like this idea in thermodynamics of like okay uh entropy right like I'm if I could actually measure all the position and moment of every particle in that box there'd be zero entropy because I'd have all the information but I as an observer outside the box can't do that right I can't there's no such thing as the

maxell's the Maxwell's demon for me so I have to equivalence all those individual micro states do one state that I call temperature right and then the statistics of that gives me the second law of Thermodynamics so the basic same idea happens here in a more abstract way of like SpaceTime the emergence of space time for observers like US statistics of yeah it's a function of the fact that we are equivalencing these micro States because the nature of who we are as an observer um but there's a weird so that's like the causal

graph is a certain representation that you can apply to this basic um multi-way evolution of the more fundamental sort of hyper abstract uh hyper graph and then so the causal um is what kind of gives you general relativity but then there's a different representation which you mentioned is like there's arbitrary um uh there's no conical ordering to how you apply given rule so you get branching so you a branchial sort of multi-way system they you call a sort of branchial graph so the graph and the causal graph are kind of

orthogonal representations of this more fundamental abstract process playing out the causal graph is what we can recover sort of we can recover generativity through the branchial graph turns out the same sort of idea is what you recover quantum mechanics through because that essentially you define measures that um are in the limit converge to essentially a Quantum discrete version of the path integral in in fam's um sort of formulation and in fact uh the banal space with certain assumptions converges to a projective

ht's uh a projective HT Hilbert space which is what you use in modern quantum mechanics and so that is that was like his breakthrough result in 2020 20121 and that was like really suggestive right but it wasn't like The Theory of Everything But it was like really interesting that actually starting with basic simple mathematical structure almost purely Comal theoretic um and you uh do some clever tricks about how you things actually can get generativity and quantum mechanics out of that which is kind mindblowing

but then what was what's interesting though and this is the part where it does kind of stretch our limits you know of how do we conceptually interpret this sort of system is the Observer actually playing a critical role in this right in the sense that there is this sort of micro scale um set updatings happening all the time and there's always this branching taking place and observers are pieces of that branching so why do we not perceive this complicated multi-way branching system we perceive a single threat of History

well what they've been able to show and this is sort of this um was gard's kind of breakthrough in a bit was like um in that branchial structure branchial graph essentially a multi-way you know people you could think of as a Multiverse but it's really much more just like it's the branching of this tree of all possible rewrites um and uh well the idea is what an observer in that system well an observer is some is something that just equivalences different branches together MH right and that he was able to show

mathematically basically um there's a certain procedure in information Theory called the newth uh Bendix completion which is just sort of basic algorithm for these sorts of rewriting systems that just takes branches and just merges them together and if you apply that right structure to this branchial graph um the it has basically allows you to recover essentially the uncertainty principle and and Quantum um uh sort of interference effects and it kind of gives this explanation that yeah like observers essentially is that solves the

measurement problem Quant mechanics essentially right it's like the measurement problem the measurement in quantum mechanics is the branchial graph is undergoing unitary Evolution observers are essentially the application of sort newth bendex completions to different branches that that it just treats as equivalent because it can't distinguish between those different states so they are actually different whatever ontologically right but from the perspective of an observer they just see one state m they're seen as CU it's just

like when I look at a glass of water don't see the individual you know water molecules I see just bunch of water right i' I have equivalence all that individual detail all that information into just this high level State and that's basically what makes us unique as obser or makes us characteristic as observers is we have we're certain certain High higher level right we're constructing models of reality at a certain high at a level much higher than the individual phenomenon that we're observing so we're doing a lot of

equivalencing and that then imposes a structure on the phenomenon that we're observing essentially makes it a definite system the other key thing is that we believe have a memory right and that memory then this is connects to like a separate branch of physics and like assembly Theory which is like memory is critical all objects essentially have an embedded memory which is like what the object it's just their history embodied in the present configuration like an individual like we are four billion years of genetic Evolution on this planet it's

like our present state is just you know what we are as objects essentially assembled structures of information and so like in the Gard wolf from model that would correspond to like essentially um you know these are hypersurface foliations of branchial space that are computationally bounded relative to the underlying structure and so they have to do this massive equivalencing and then they perceive they have a linear thread of History so they believe that they're continuous they have a memory that's embedded so

that they're basically a pattern of these structured newth bendex completions going back through the multi-way system that's very abstract but like that's kind of the idea um it gets even more abstract so this seems too abstract right this idea of like applying a particular rule um you know well you're like well why that rule right is there one rule for physics well it seems kind of arbitrary what if you apply all possible rules well then you get to this separate uh graph which called like a or space even called

like a the Ral space of possible rules that you could apply to any arbitrary hypergraph and then you can analyze that really space just like you can analyze the causal graph and the branchial graph now I have this Ral graph which is like not just what is the multi-way system of possible Evolutions applying different orderings of the same rule but what is multi-way system of the this graph applying all possible rules in possible ways so you get this combinatorial just you extra explosion but then analyzing at Ral

space and this was Gard uh working with a a mathematician named um Xerxes uh IIs saala I forget his how to pronounce his like last name but they just took techniques and this is getting is as far I'll go in terms of really abstract physics but like um they went really deep applying techniques from um what's called homotopy type Theory or higher order higher type Theory MH which is you can try to simplify this like this Ral space which is essentially defining all the possible paths that a non-deterministic turing

machine can follow so it's Fally like a computational approach to understanding reality like a turning machine is just you know a simple like the most abstract uh kind of representation computational process and so you imagine like you know essentially non- ter machine is like it spits out one state from an input State and has a memory register well what if there are multiple different ways that uh the output could come from a given input right that'd be equivalent to kind of this branching in the multi-way system so you can know

rep you know we can represent the evolution of multiway system in terms a non-deterministic multi-way turing um sort of system evolving and then we know a lot of results from basic information theory about how to apply that um to that sort of uh representation and you can apply results in this branch of mathematics like uh coming out of category Theory which we won go down that rabbit hole but the really interesting idea that they look at into this paper is space of possible rules here that were look they're trying to analyze in terms

of what sorts of um categorical structure do they have like to each other and they realized actually like um there's uh you know the very simplest sets of rules that you could write down sort of classifying space sort um the sort of the zero homotopy or even I think it was maybe the one homotopy um that you can write down as a of analyzing these multi-way systems um is equivalent to categorical formulations of quantum mechanics and then the next homotopy sort of representation up is equivalent to the Catal representation

what's called functorial Quantum field Theory and then if you jump all the way up to what's called you know if actually do like uh you know essentially this Infinite L limit uh of doing these sort of homotopy expansions you get to a structure it's called an infinity groupoid and this will be a bit super wonky but an Infinity groupoid is a well studied structure in sort of homotopy theory and an Infinity groupoid has a weird property that uh the famous mathematician growth Indique uh looked at and he formulated this weird

property as sort of the growth ind's sort of homotopy hypothesis which is that an Infinity groupoid is a topological space and uh importantly there's a result in hometop theory that like you know an Infinity groupoid is like a special group and in fact whatever its properties are sort of get functorially inherited to all the uh lower level homotopies that are below it right so you have in Infinity group boid that's composed of this infinite limit of these sort homotopy tower being stacked up on each other uh

essentially the set of rules describing the set of all possible rules describing it's like you know can always formulate uh you know like an said have a hypergraph like what is a set of rules I can apply for that hyper graph okay well that can now represent that set well I can go what are the different ways I can represent the set of Transformations I can do to that object and then you can you know you can basically do that all the way up right like how many different ways can I transform this object that creates a new object how

many different ways can I transform that object and so that's like what homotopy means essentially what are the different equivalent ways of representing the set of ways I can change a given object so you can always apply that kind of this infinite you know limit the infinite of that is this Infinity groupoid that if you you accept you know growth dicts homic hypothesis is essentially equivalent to a topological space that's what a topological space is and so that the properties of topological space then get

inherited functorially all the way down to all the lower level homotopies right that an observer like us would be embedded in and so that's why we see space right and so like the upshot of all this is that in sort of abstract you know thinking about this model the infinity groupoid is where general relativity it's like that's where we see this sort of emergent a higher level um uh continuous geometric structure and then the lower level bottom sort of the bottom that homotopic Tower is a discreet quantum mechanical system that we observe and

because we're in the middle right we're not cosmological like in our size scale we're not individual particle we sit in the middle and like mystery of quantum gravity is trying to write down a specification of like the middle of that Tower right allows you to like understand not just from quantum mechanics and one level up Quantum field Theory and then zooming all the way up to Quantum generativity but like filling out the mathematics all the way in between that's like the project that would be like that's where how you know solve

quantum gravity in this idea um and this generates some philosophical implications uh or interpretations of like well then what is reality right and this is the last piece of this but like you can what you know Gard has interesting has interesting take on it because you're like okay well you know this Infinity groupoid actually is a classifying space of all Infinity group WS that you can call like the infinity one topos this sort of you know can almost call it like the um wolf from C like the entangled limit of

all possible computations Gard just sort of treats it a bit more like you know the the classifying space of all different ways a multi-way non deterministic uh turning machine can evolve um so it's kind of this abstract mathematical almost like infinite dimensional object that like we're we and everything is are embedded in and we're sort of slices in this High Lev object and in fact one thing they show in their earlier derivations is essentially what Observer is a essentially foliating or slicing down a high level object and sort of picking

out um you know states that it are equivalencing right and that's what we kind of have learned the lesson in special and general relativity is that there is no Universal reference frame for reality right this is why you get lorence uh contraction it's why you get um you know no Universal agreement on what's simultaneous right observers that are boosted relative to another will pick out different events as being simultaneous and that's equivalent to and you know traditional relativity essentially is you know have a

hypersurface that's slicing the bulk and different observers at different reference frames will that slice will be tilted in different ways and so that will pick out you know sets of events in SpaceTime that they will think are simultaneous versus others we all agree on simultaneous events because we're all relatively moving at the same speed so we agree this is just one you know stage we're all playing in but that's that's just an illusion of the fact that we happen to sit in very cmeasured reference frames um and so the

same idea would apply in this Ral space we s tend to think see the same universe we agree on the laws of physics because we're sitting in uh you know in Ral space close to each other right we're not boosted relative to each other in Ral space um and so we're all we're slicing this higher dimensional structure basically in the same way right so we're seeing the same universe we see the same laws of physics but if you were in a different part of Ral space or you were accelerating in Ral space maybe you would see different

physics that connects to so this is like yeah so this is like okay well then okay if this is true then like building this whole Tower of abstractions and trying to then translate into predictions and then interpreting it in a way that you could then be like okay if we're going to assume higher level intelligences have some knowledge of this right well what can they then do with it right could they um engineer these newth newth bendic completions to stitch together um events uh in a different way yes right uh or like the nature of

Consciousness is deeply tied into this right because uh gor doesn't go into theor of Consciousness have my own theories of Consciousness here but like that I think they could be consistent with this in the sense of you know form of Consciousness essentially is this idea that we have uh we're an embodied local moderately you know mesoscale structure with limited information observing you know the world around us and essentially compressing it down a lot like we're compressing huge amounts of information down and we're basically like slicing

everything into a nice discreet you know events uh cluster here if you didn't have those constraints if you know almost like the inverted version of us right would be was like a Quantum conscious quantum computer if such a thing you could imagine would kind of be the inversion of us it would be some mind that would experience like the full branch graph in one slice at a time mhm it would have no sense of continuity through time it would just be like a now wow flash but I just perceive all in one gulp all the different branches

of the multi-way system and then I disappear from existence and then maybe a new version comes into existence at the at the next you know U measurement operation of the quantum computer the quantum computer is a series of now wow flashes but there's no continuous identity it's just exist in all possible branches of that particular foliation we are the like we're orthogonal version of that right we don't see the different branches we one branch and we believe persist through time so like we're a vibration of this structure a quantum computer

that's conscious would be a foliation of this structure which interesting is there are there versions in between right are there like those just those the only Alternatives or are there certain types of ways you could stitch together uh this very you know this abstract uh you know doing these completions that would be somewhere in between actually to your like gradations of the ability to think in sort of a Quantum way or something I think the brain itself is probably you know maybe a room temperature Quantum system or this is

like totally theoretical like I don't have like the specific you know causal mechanism or like physical structure in the brain but that's the Penrose Theory the emperor's new mind you know with with hamov the reason I like it is because I think there's all this empirical and statistical evidence that we can predict the future at very least we think in very fundamentally different ways from classical computers right uh because we can surmise things with small amounts of data we can we we have these sort of you know blink

reflexes that seem to be right often and I think that might uh bely an ability to um access a future knowledge state which in Quantum computations you might be able to do you can reverse Cubit positions in Quantum computations so maybe if there are gradations of the ability to you know kind of invert the the the bendex completion or whatever um then then like uh we might be sort of ascending into that like might be what we're being evolutionarily selected for right now if you look at again like Jessica UTS uh the statistician studying

all the sort of you know psychic spy Stargate stuff coming out of the CIA it does seem like a lot of these things fall way below you know P values that you'd expect and so I think it is actually statistically signant I just think it's radiation in the 1860 or you know Mercury's orbit we just can't put into M or in the case of you know yeah you can't turn it into discret Quantum phenomena I think you can Define this phenomena in terms of the Gard multi-way system for example like um this basic uh phenomena you're talking about is

essentially non-locality right but non-locality in A Spacetime uh framework to us is either non-local spatially distributed phenomenon or nonlocal temporally distributed phenomena but in this framework space and time are emergent uh you know observational phenomenologies associated with us being a certain type of Observer foliating reality in a certain way but for example you had I mentioned this like causal graph and the branchial graph well what this directly implies is essentially um uh two events like states in the

causal graph that seem very spatially you know causally um separated can be very close in Branch Hill space yep right so what looks to us as sort of non-local phenomenon right in quantum mechanics Quantum superposition quantum entanglement right are you know ex you know directly result like those those two say like you know entangled photons or whatever they look really far away in Branch space they're one Edge against they're one Edge away from each other and the way to get into Branch space could be two things one is

uh high energy physics uh and then the other could be something related to Consciousness if there is this space-time superposition build up this is why I think it's more important the Consciousness piece is actually more important than the particle accelerators because what this directly implies is it's not that we're going to smash something at higher energies and break into branchell space because space is what we are collapsing in our conscious experience into we're not necessarily changing root reality but we

are stitching this more fundamental substrate together to construct the world for ourselves right but you are kind of implying that you might be able to affect Branch shs but like you might be able to affect space-time superposition on a more fundamental level or something well it's a matter of like maybe it's the semantics of like you know changing or exploring like Consciousness like doing a conscious uh manipulating Consciousness in some way will allow us to sort of um you know relax the constraints about how we're

stitching this underlying structure together right like we we're stitching it in a certain way because you know we have evolved this sort of neurological structure we have to condense things down it's like when you do you know hallucinogenic drugs like the characteristic phenomenology of that is uh you know no definite state right that pattern are shifting right the generative like your generative World model is in this kind of super position and it's like radically looking almost like whatever that branches are

you're like exploring you know in some way like multiple branches very quickly alt together like your world isn't collapsing into a deterministic state right you're which is if you believe the Penrose model there is it there maybe our brain maintains coherence for some amount of time this is his he's trying to kind of derive Free Will in his thing too cuz he says there's this refractory period before the buildup and one graviton threshold where you sort of derive and see SpaceTime but in that sort of buildup

with SpaceTime super position everything is kind of like you know popping in and out of real like so maybe if you maintain coherence for like longer or something and this would be a physical way to describe this and you know fra for to you know uh criticize the no Prize winner genius uh but I think you know while it's a good to have a well specified theory that makes those predictions with steuart hammer off's kind of sort microt turial piece of it as well you know his b actually we can potentially do an experiment to test this because his

basic is that essentially um when you embed a Quantum system in classical gravitational field it generates this inherent instability that has a characteristic Decay time and that you could you know set up an measurement apparatus with two you know entangled masses and see you know if isolate it like how long will they Decay and actually a recent experiment was just proposed um the G experiment taking two um nanoc crystals entangle them magnetically conf and essentially you know like wait right and and it's interesting because this will

actually won't it rule out um you know it won't test a specific Theory but it'll rule out categories of theories that basically have a classical G SpaceTime with Quantum objects um and the basic limit though is that you know it's almost like I think uh it was I foret who came with think it was fam even who was just like there's a basic conceptual idea which like if you have a Quantum object in classical SpaceTime it has to send a signal somehow influence another quantum object so how is that possible Right like a

nature of a Quantum object is its superposition of States a classical space time can only emit one state it can't be in multiple gravitational fields right it's only hold so like it's almost like information theoretic question of like you've got the superposition of states that have to somehow send a signal to another thing in the superposition of states that is being transmitted through a classical sort of uh sort you know medium almost like logically doesn't make sense right uh so I think a version of Penrose I don't know he has got his

twister Theory and Gard has some ideas about how to essentially get reconstruct uh penrose's twister Theory from from the these more abstract models but your idea of like the brain is being a Quantum system I it's weird like I think people defer as like the brain like Consciousness is quantum I almost want to invert it and be like Quantum is consciousness right it's not that like there's some Quantum Voodoo thing out there like Consciousness is like interacting with if this is more fundamental if you take seriously this idea that you know coming

out of these mathematical models that g is put together like Consciousness just is what an observer uh you know quantum mechanics just is what a conscious Observer will see when it's trying to like make sense of a branching world the world is just branching the world this branchial graph but we don't see it if you're an observer that sees one you have to do this completion procedure and that process will give you phenon that we call quantum mechanics I but feel like almost the fundamental question then is like can you fundamentally

influence this neth bendex completion in order to sort of you know pick your pathway Goosebump style you know across the Multiverse and this is the more philosophical question that Gard struggles with a bit and I haven't seen him like land on a particular interpretation I don't really land on a particular interpretation but this is where it comes out like well you need to have better theory of the Observer theory of the Observer they have is a kind of very abstract mathematical definition right but you really want a

richer you know more like neur neurobiologically connected you know theory of the Observer to then see like well how many degrees of freedom are there in this process how deter like the non-determinism versus determinism question gets very subtle in these sorts of systems and in particular um this idea uh he goes back in you know history philosophy between on the one hand like idealism on the one hand empiricism right you know have the bishop Berkeley of the world that basically um you know in a sense put all the

computational burden and work inside the Observer the world is some sort of holographic bare field of awareness that that that singular entity is experiencing so all the computational like work is happening inside the observer in that model there's an equivalent model of reality uh empiricism in this sense where you treat The Observer essentially as this null measurement apparatus and all the interesting computational work is happening outside of it clearly has to be in between the full idealism for because in these theories an observer

isn't some like weird separate entity in this multi-way system the multiway system is just that's all there and observer is a certain way of equivalencing those micro States I don't think we're interoperable Quantum detectors but then I also don't think we are living in holographic universes so yeah and what Gad says like it's kind of a free parameter in that sense like it may not actually be a measurable you know or even scientific question to resolve of like well how it just almost like an aesthetic preference do

you prefer to imagine these models in such a way that all the computational burden ontologically sits inside of one Observer or exists outside of the Observer like from there's no Observer outside the system right there's only observers inside the system and we are a certain type of Observer inside this system there may be very different types of observers inside this multi-way system yeah that are perceiving it in a different way than us because of the nature of what they are as observers right there's different constraints that

they have right they're less computationally bounded they can see more of the micro structure right like an AI for example um you know forget the questions about whether AI are conscious or not but just like assume that there could be a system that uh it be conscious that we would call you know an a an AGI but you know the ability to parse many different fine finely grained details of reality um at a very large speed yeah wouldn't necessarily foliate that causal structure the way we do right foliate the causal structure because the speed

of light is much faster than the way our brains process events so like everything looks simultaneous to us they look like objects with smooth trajectories inside A threedimensional Spacetime if you were able to like perceive much faster right the world would be very different it'd be kind of gooey and Sloopy and it would just kind of like things would not be in this kind of like smooth flat manifold right it'd be this it would be very different to us right or if you imagine like how a dog know blind dog that only proceedes via

smell like the diffusion rate of smells is pretty slow relative to you know his ability to navigate the environment so like if he's constructing kind of a conformal metric for the space that he's in like a dog is going to perceive a very different thing yes right and so it's like the way we have a full mental model of like space and reality is really Downstream of the characteristic features of us as observers and we tend to We over anchor on that well we could there be some sort of central uh server or no maybe it's like a server client side

relationship with conscious and there are nodes we're all of Consciousness and there are strengths relative strengths of each node and sort of reality could be this um local rendering But ultimately if it's local rendering it's sort of consensus collapsing function and so there is some you know two-way interplay between the mind and reality itself in a way that the full materialist reductionists would like never admit to but that's going be constrained by like the rest of nodes in the system and so fact that

we're seeing a table right here is because we sort of like implicitly agreed that a table was right here and if like somebody at a certain level of Consciousness all Jesus or something walked in here he could turn this table into a chair well I mean there's don't want to presume that I have the final Theory here but like and there are major gaps and an important Gap in sort of the Machinery that Gard has worked out here is um multi-observer networks here right and because he's trying to get the bare minimal model most abstract version and

try to generate these mathematical results that then we can interpret in terms of these physical um uh you know uh theories we already have but really don't actually have a good theory in these terms of um multiple observers and what does like we've sort of worked out in these models what sort of world abstract sort of physical um phenomenon or physical constraints in terms of quantum mechanics and relativity does a certain Observer see does a essentially multi-way Observer see when they're embedded in a branching

Universe we haven't those like what does how does how do two observers see each other right and importantly like this is a part where I'm going beyond my competency but there's a part of some his papers where he's talked about this new vendex procedure kind of propagating out right and just as there is a finite speed of light in the causal graph right there's a finite speed or rate at which um you know any given event can have a causal influence on other event you can have causal light cone that you can can you can Define over the causal graph

there's an equivalent sort of entanglement cone in the branchial space what's the maximal speed of entanglement we don't know what that is right but if we think that like conscious observers are essentially representations of that constraint right that like there's only so much an observer can entangle with or essentially do these completions then that might put a boundary constraint what sorts of observers exist in and I don't know this is getting Beyond like my ability of like but this idea when when you do this completion for

procedure in Branch space it does propagate out like these are connected systems and this is where it gets you know that's go then you have to build this Tower from the super abstract representations in terms of these graphs to like us and that's that's Way Beyond beond what we've been able to do this far but it also makes me think of you know uh Carl Nell who set up Army Futures command and was you know um kind of Defending grush publicly as soon as he came out and uh was on the UAP task force he talks about a

different version of the kardashev scale and uh he talks about that in two respects one is energy density uh over like sheer energy output and so that being incredibly important you know fire electricity nuclear you know these are more uh subject to the kind of axis of uh energy density than they are just sheer output and then the second thing he says is our understanding of the universe and our sort of Consciousness level or whatever and so you're bringing up this yeah I mean if you can get to that know hypergraph level of understanding slowly

you know that may maybe explains the sort of nhi but it also forces us to think about other phenomenon that we've previously dismissed right because we have a certain physicalist Paradigm a materialist Paradigm that's local right that we've that like the physicists have you know they came up with this model in the last you know like from the 1800s to the early 1920s and then that model kind of became embedded in most you know people's F folk understanding of existence right and then have now crept into how we think about policing certain

topics of inquiry in our scientific and medical disciplines where certain things are considered paranormal pseudoscience other things are considered perfectly fine and you know legitimate we've drawn a very tight boundary on this but it's like we don't actually have the universe figured out guys right like we're still figuring new things out like we should we remain open to those basic assumptions on locality and sort of physicalist as it's traditionally been described being just not quite complete descriptions of

reality right yeah and then you know if this something like the story I just told you here is a purely mathematical account of how you know we could have what would look to us like non-local phenomenon yeah that would deeply connected to our conscious experience that in one way would be entirely wooy telepathy sorts of interpretations but would be a hard just real feature of existence yes right and I mean had my mind blown yesterday I was listening to the this new podcast and I again I haven't like done the due

diligence on it so you know Proviso but it's called the telepathy tapes and I've I've I grew up in a pretty hard hardcore scientific Paradigm of like I need research I need data evidence here and it's remarkable story of you know dozens of um non-verbal uh individuals with autism that essentially um you know report their like with one caregiver like usually their mother having a telepathic connection and they've actually done like pretty just what the hell types of experiments and they what's interesting is they report like

these uh these sort of non-speakers they call them spellers because they use a certain spelling technique to you know communicate that um they have essentially telepathic connection with other with other autistic individuals like themselves right and that they see normal humans essentially us like the speakers right as being like we're the handicapped ones right we have to have to distill and compress you know all of this complex phenomenology in our brains this kind of conceptual stew thought and feeling emotion into

like vocal tract and like plosive air movements right and that is like such a crude compressive you know thing when you can just have a brain-to-brain connection and it's non-local they can you know exchange feelings it seems wild and like you know a year ago if told me like this i' be is some kooky thing there's some somebody's rigging this or misinterpreting it now I'm like I actually think there's a plausible explanation for something like that I believe it I'm got into the UFO stuff through parasystole scientific field or whatever

but you speak to some of these people who were at Elite University studying random event generators basically our minds abil to affect you know conventionally thought of as random uh things and or phenomena in quantum mechanics with known statistical distributions things like radioactive isotope Decay that you know we're somehow we are able to affect these things in my opinion and you have you have Jessica UTS doing these sort of you know meta level studies I think they're pretty good as far like the experimental protocol that she's sort of

you know diligen and then uh I think there's there's a lot of of data um and so yeah I'm a Believer and there's a really great book called um time Loops have you heard of this by guy named Eric Wargo sounds familiar I haven't read it it's it's amazing and it produces some sort of theory as to how this might work and it involves the brain being sort of this hybrid classical quantum computer where we can access future knowledge States and so actually feedback is like essential for um correct remote viewing because if you

know that you're right in the future then you can sort of access shards that future if the you know information gets sent back in time which may there is temporal non-locality in quantum mechanics and there's spatial non-locality so it just point and then we have the simultaneous to that you have this burgeoning field of um you know uh Quantum biology where we know that the cr4 protein and Robins or whatever use the magnetosphere of earth via electron spin to navigate home we know that enzyme creation occurs via

Quantum tunneling and that sort of thing so I see these two like vectors of you have like a lot of data on this anomalous stuff that we just like explain away and we say this is BS This is BS because physics right but physics is so dumb because epistemologically 50% of our physical models of reality are always wrong at any point in time so you can't say that and then you have this burgeoning field of of quantum you know biology where it's like yeah the body's warm wet and noisy maybe it's not good for coherence

but like we're discovering a lot of stuff here and so I think they probably converge at some of yeah and I completely agree with you but it's also been you know some of the well has been poisoned by a bunch of quantum Voodoo Peddlers right who want to be like I've got magic crystals $10,000 and you know I'm going to like fix you we just have to admit it's like the Carl poppers materialist promisory notes you can't have idealist promisory notes either and you can't say that we know the causal mechanism of the brain you can

hypothesize maybe there's some Quantum going on there we don't know but it is the data is really compelling I know Diane Powell who did the telepathy t and she's Harvard Affiliated she's yeah harded and legit as it gets yeah I was like I was really impressed by that work again I'm going to look into I just I binged them all last night I was like wow this kind of opened my mind to something I hadn't previously considered well it would make sense that there would be a tradeoff right between like analytical knowledge and then you know

flash Insight knowledge like that sort of roughly makes sense and then one possible candidate physical you have Gary Nolan who's a microbiologist at Stanford also interested in the UFO topic who you know claims that people are more likely to both see UFOs but also you know be more quote unquote psychic with greater neuronal density in the Cotate nucleus and paman in the basil gangle of the brain and so that could be you know and you hook up uh somebody doing fmri uh for example while they're playing the game of Go and when they make a quote

unquote count a brilliant move you know a move that's totally counterintuitive as far as the rational logic set that they're using on an incremental go forward BAS it only makes sense in the context of a future knowledge state that they would have to know of them winning yeah that part of the brain lights up so like and then apparently that part of the brain lights up um when somebody takes iboga as well so like May and then people have you know Visionary experiences so well yeah but and then the the natural question is okay well

then how can you situate some phenomena like that which are suggestive in a scientifically motivated Paradigm that can explain it I think you know I'm not to like you know keep going back to the gardian multi systems but I think okay how can we get as much out of this certain framework as possible that maybe can explain some of these things and in and you know the critical thing to kind of get your head around it took me a while multiple years I was thinking about these things it's like the brain is an evolved um information structure

that is that branching as part of this multi-way process and it's evolved to sort of you know adapt to it's an information complex right like it the brain is the tower that it's like a really it's really small in space but it's really long in time if you think about the brain is you know a human brain it goes back you know four billion years right to the prootic soup and those were like bootstrapped autoclitic sort of chemical structures which you can Define in terms of some sort of information preserving memory

structur right the universe essentially is learning and then finding ways to embed that learning into real objects that then can learn more and extend into the future universe is constructing itself right Y and objects of various kinds or different you know present day manifestations of what has been learned right that's all that they are um they're just embodied histories of the universe right like in in Bitcoin language it's like the proof of the universe's work right universe is this blockchain multi-threaded embodied by sort of

blockchain of information theoretic structures um and the brain is a certain type of structure that the Universe has evolved and learned how to create and is trying to embed certain um and it's a selection process right it's pretty brutal mechanism to kind of get to these systems and so you're like okay well what sorts of capabilities then if this is the B if this space that that object has now been evolving in it's not been evolving in what we think what been evolving in it's in just a Terr landscape of threedimensional SpaceTime with Predator

prey and whatnot interactions but it's actually evolving in this multi-threaded you know Branch system and there might be capabilities again it has to sort of has to optimize right like how much of its computational work is going to be navigating the causal graph or just how much of the cause computational work is going to be of uh navigating the branchell graph think about navigating the branchial graph in many evolutionary kind circumstances would be very non-selective right you're considering you don't see you the one

branch that you're about to head in you see multiple branches and you get confused you don't how to make a decision you get eaten die fall off the cliff right whatever but there might be unique circumstances where it does giving you evolutionary advantage to take a little bit of peak into the branchell graph which again is it's not like there's a universal time slice or universal time there's multip multiple branches of time you know almost an infinite branch of time and you're in a particular part of this this you know infinite structure and

there might be evolutionary advantage to be able to like take a little Peak uh at the branch graph where you get these non-local correlations right you could maybe get into an entangled state with um a future event to you in your causal structure that might actually be well this might be a bit you know Gard if he was listening to me he'd be like he might say like technically that not be possible if it's because of the structure of the graph but like I think it's possible to essentially and this is getting a bit more but like the causal

like the causal light cone and branchial entanglement cone I think share a boundary in these models they don't overlap but they share a boundary but it would make sense that access to the would be somehow adaptive based on natural selection or something it goes towards like Donald Hoffman's work of like why do we see you know don't see like 600 nanometers or whatever we just see red I mean come back to the these uh non-verbal autistics right that's highly you know evolutionary you disfavored right but from a group

selection pressure it could be evolutionarily favored group sele this is why it's fascinating right like they they might have been called the Sears the individuals in exactly right and so you know group selection would identify these people in the population and give them privileged roles they're not going to be in the hunter you know fighter tribe because they'll get hit by the spear but they'll try to predict whether it's good go for the for you know raid tomorrow Geniuses are um often you know uh a asexual asocial or

antisocial or whatever uh but on a group level they're extremely adaptive and they're extremely adapted in like kind of malthusian downturns like when times get tough you need to protect your Geniuses and I was just talking this morning with somebody about maybe like on the population level what sorts of selection are we undergoing now right and if you imagine okay human evolution brought us to a particular point where maybe like the median person is 99% the caal graph one maybe less the one% you get the occasional flashes of

intuition weird synchronicity you know weird things that you were like how did I know that or I was just thinking about that person they called me things that we sort of write off right in these these autistics examples like they live much more in that world right and makes them very hard to navigate normal world where we live in the caal graph and they interact in a very different way they perceive reality very differently than us it's very hard for us to understand it's always sort of write it off as like

they're disabled but actually it's like they're just experiencing reality in a very different way to us and it's disfavored to navigate normal world but then we're also looking like what sort of society are we constructing in a sense like what does it mean to be autistic and again I'm not trying to like you know be like an expert this but like in general you know it's like unable to sort of process normal sensory signals in a coherent way they sort of over sensory overload right and sort of what we're doing to ourselves as like

a civilization right like we're constructing this digital machine interfaces and just like the cacophony of noise and Hyper stimulation it almost is making us like autistic as a civilization and then on the other side what do you see like the burgeoning cultural movements among Elites they're all about Consciousness taking psychedelic exploration like they're being squeezed out of the normal causal world and they're really spending a lot more time as like groups and you know different different uh social practices like explore Consciousness

right explore the branchial space right take psychedelics meditative practices Etc so I see this as like is the transition we're undergoing as a species is like you know we're we've now constructed a sort of technological civilization where we don't need to have you know all of that cognitive energy motivated to navigate the causal graph yeah we now can explore and maybe that's the maybe that's what these nhi have done they've gone through this right and now this is where they spend most of their time well could it

totally and it could point to I mean this is a dark interpretation but it's like maybe we're in the three body problem maybe in causal space our timeline is kind of screwed and this Mass desire to explore branchial space Visa UFOs psychedelics Consciousness techniques is an attempt to ascend out of a timeline that on materialist causal level is not so hot I mean this is where it gets I mean we're all this was on the different branch of speculative physics speculative metaphysics and connecting it down to like speculative interpretations of our

current you know human story well can I can I can add one thing to that which is you know wiin Eric Weinstein didn't believe in UFOs for super I would always be like dude I think this is real you know again based on some of the stuff I'm pointing out about parascheva bles just seem right and he got into it because he became convinced that there was kind of the secret branch of physics like involving people wheeler fan dwit and that these guys had way more of an interface with private Aerospace than actually met the eye one

of the guys in that wheeler Fineman dit circle is a guy named Hugh Everett and Hugh Everett was Wheeler's student at Princeton and he came up with this Multiverse theory in the 50s and DT really helped popularize it in the 70s and I think about the stuff that dwit was working on um you know with agnu bonson at The Institute of field physics at UNC North Carolina Chapel Hill um it was like often gravitational anomalies were like there was an extreme interest in gravity and obviously at least on a macroscopic general relativity scale

gravity and time seem super tightly coupled and so then Everett goes he works for the Pentagon he on like all sorts of like interesting game theory stuff Visa like our nuclear program and I sometimes worry wonder if like the if there is some highlevel game that's like you know um above our at least known cev scale it's going on at the level of like time timelines and nuclear stuff yeah I mean it sounds nuts but I also have S of forced myself into a situation you know intellectually where I have to take this idea of

timeline manipulation very seriously because it comes out naturally from seeing the world in terms of sort multi-way evolution systems right where there is no preferred time line and it's not like the you know bulk Universe you know sense of generativity is true it's it's essentially these models these um Gard models are very much like an everan interpretation but with a little bit more of a fundamental structure he basically just takes the the mathematics of um uh the wave function is just okay whatever it's

you know all the these igen values exist in just a different Universe right and then the way that he characterized it is like um each measurement operation causes a branch but he doesn't really Define what a measurement operation is so there's kind of an undefined sense like how do you Scope the actual Multiverse that gets created right what are what are the branches right how what defines a branch in the gard it's a very well- defined sense of what a branch is right because it's a discret structure there's only

countable number of these branches um and so but I have to take that seriously if like there's multiple threads of time and they're not all like potentially accessible right and they're going to be constrained in any given local reference frame that's defined by an observer or set observers in sort of this Ral representation that are all slicing reality relatively close to each other there well it's like how nav like I this is open like that it possible to move you know like make decisions have for example the

theory here right this goes back to I think um I forget where there was like some like UFO lore some communication with some nhi it was like what's going on like why are you here or something it was like CIA Wizards are messing with the timeline right it kind of like the tagline and it's kind of you know become kind of a bit like lore you know sort of you know storytelling but it's like well okay I always try to cash out these crazy statements in terms of something I can interpret terms of you know the physics that I trust here it's like okay

well if it turns out that is possible if you know we're all Minds existing in a very tight cluster in Ral space and we're slicing we see reality basically the same way um and is it possible that like you know one of those Minds because we don't have an observer as I mentioned we don't have like a theory of the structure where it's like multiple observers interacting right is it possible that like some of those people can just decide you using certain whatever techniques right might involve Consciousness right Amplified with

whatever you know degrees of freedom we can exploit uh through our technology that could you know cause nearby Minds to all shift with them to a new timeline right if I'm like okay how is it possible to take a primy absurd statement CIA Wizards messing with a timeline and cash that out something I can interpret in terms of a physical Theory that's how I would have to do it I doesn't mean it's you know true like I feel like you know all I try to hear these things and I try not to dismiss them I try to you know come up with a

naturalistic explanation that isn't just oh we're time traveling well because then you get know all the causal problems of time travel yes one the things in these models that time travel can be specified in a certain way whereas because there's no such thing as like a universal time function yeah exactly right but so in the branchial space it might a branch space time travel would be an observer happens happens to equivalence a set of states in its future causal that are that observationally indistinct from an set of states that

previously existed inh so it's not like he tra like that Observer traveled back in time it just happens to encounter in its future causal graph a structure of states that is identical observationally indistinguishable from a past set of States like that you know it's still a linear it's still a linear process of the of these this Evolution but just encountering a future State that's identical to a past state right or if you have graph rout access you a save a saved game state from kind of an information theoretic standpoint you

could just like go back to that saved game well so in the language of category theory if you have these have this you know if have state a in you know local future that's observation indistinguishable from State B relative to The Observer can equivalence those two states right and so there is no meaningful distinction between it's like a saved state that then was passed it's like that's all that there was right and the Observer is just encountering a future a state that is identical to its past State there's no way to distinguish

between that and like canonical descriptions of time persp right there's no observational dis maybe like at a lower level of description they actually are different it's not true time travel in the sense that they're you know the micro states are observation are actually identical but that's not what you need to explain time travel that would be you know empirically relevant to us it would just be you know in and how is this different from simulations right well you know well one is like you just happen to encounter a future state that it's

identical to a past State the simulation interpretation this would be somebody is able to construct for an observer or set of observers a set of observation of a set of states in its future that are observationally indistinguishable to that set of observers to states that were in its local past um and I know we that's way beyond our capabilities well that's that's I know it's not ruled out right in principle it's beyond our capabilities but I don't like sometimes I think about how obvious the simulation arguments are so this is like

popularized by Nick brostrom and you know super intelligence that gave it it sort of coveted academic stample approval but before that you had Philip K dick talking about this in all his sci-fi novels and you even have somebody who in my mind is as conventional and like not creatively thinking as Neil degrass Tyson saying that we are 50% we're in a we're simulation so like he that guy won't like you know need to get peer reviewed and like I'm not going to respect anything else in physics World outside of like super

conventional Dogma but 50% we're we could be in a simulation and so I think about like that 50% Branch right of us being in a simulation which again is that that might even be underestimated given that Neil degrass Tyson as the spokesman here if you think about where we're headed in our future things probably don't remain stable they probably inflect upwards or downwards and if they reflect downwards it's like this you know we're all walking around around in Shanty towns without access to clean W water and were microchipped but

like you probably get this like increase in like it you know virtual reality Fidelity and so that's like Ready Player One definitely opt into the simulation if we end up in a world of resource abundance it will be through dual use technology and technology that will um either be saving of humanity or destroying of humanity like we're not at the uh you know point at which kid is been can blow up the world but we might be at some point in the future just you know uh destructive Tech exponentially increasing and then costs

of that Tech you know and so it's like if you were to like be quote unquote guardians of that future world you might put people through a simulation as a test to uh you know and maybe they have to contemplate virtue and that allows them to ascend out of the you know out of their uh uh uh computational interfaces and have access to uh this world that is you know maybe infinite resources but also you could destroy it at the drop of a hat or something yeah it's tough to sometimes connect these this metaphysical model or metaphysical

analysis and physical analysis to like The Human Condition in the our day-to-day kind of and near future sort of trajectories right and I think the interesting thing about the nhi question is it's like the B the fulcrum point right that sort of is forcing us to one zoom out and try situate ourselves in a what we think of as the final or at least more fundamental picture of reality yeah and then account for these objects in terms of some you know near term or interpretation of our political experience right those are like and in

like religious you know stories that's like a traditional cosmogeny or theosophy it's like we want to or theoy like we want to tell uh we want to situate our you know nitty-gritty humdrum terrestrial human Affairs in some sort of cosmic story right and that that imbus everything with significance it imbus us with significance it this with meaning and whatever so it's a very tempting human project um I like if the they uh nhi you know encounters and the UAP craft were not real right and I was just on the separate trajectory of analyzing wol

from Models I'd be like well those are separate those are separate things so like analyze metaphysics and think about you know how humans are going to screw you know you screw each other up um the fact that we have this interface now apparently with some other form of intelligence you know forces to then stretch into these questions but then of course we have the heavy baggage of our society of all these different theodes and worldviews and different religious interpretations that we have to kind of navigate because those are very

deeply embedded um but I do think like very practically right like we are creating crazy weapons right I'll just tell you we are have some crazy [ __ ] right like um and there's some crazy [ __ ] happening like now I mean had a meeting just the other day some people inside dd inel and I was told you know one of the things came coming out water and hit somebody that's wild this happens not infrequently and this is this was a conversation with person that was not this the topic of the conversation like a craft can come out of the water and uh I

try not to get we were I try into any details it was one of one of those things cuz we know nuclear subs are actually the first line of offense but no like it you know came out of the water medium and Zapped yes wow that was it a bit was a bit much um and this came in the cont of a conversation that was not about this at all right it was in more Normie you know stuff I do like day job sorts of stuff um and it just came out towards the end and um yeah I just like so this is happening now right and it's happening in a complicated um set

of conditions um and so this is where it's like you know we had this very abstract you know physics metaphysics intelligence simulation discussion but then I have to like then to come back to like this convers these conversations I had just like a few days ago and I'm like what the hell is actually happening because I'm not sure I can truly explain like the nature of these abstract models and thought experiments is they set boundary conditions for possible explanations they give you a guide to sort of get sort of a gut understanding or you kind

of grock what you know can mentally visualize but they don't really you know help you account for like the these random like these detailed things that are happening right like what is the particular morphology why you know all the the um you know different aspects of quote like ufology they do not I know we have a predictive theory that is like so General that makes these specific you know set of hyp es that then correlate you know one to with all the specific details of UFO how put off might be closest but even that

it you know involves sort of messing with General Einstein's field equations in a way that conventional physicist well I mean there's also if have some issues with simulation Theory but like on a metaphysical basis but there's versions of the simulation hypothesis which are not metaphysical they're just like we are all being someone basically has you know virtually uh matrixed us yes right and you know whatever they've disabled us do that and in scenario well like this is the three body problem but like on steroids like what science can

we do yeah right like they control the experiments we can run the thoughts can have the things we can observe like we're just we're puppets right so the question is like where that degree of Freedom still exists in a simulation that's you know hypothesized in that scenario and is it one in which even the simulators have some inherent constraints like this computational irreducibility they can set it up can set some boundary condition initial States and they just have to let it run yes and they're just learning

what the system does you could say that's a good model for the whole universe y right universe is just it's running it's discovering new things creating novel structures and it's you know embedding its memories over time into the future um so you know I'm not sure how much that gets you right in terms of well there's like NPC version of the simulation which gets you nowhere it gets you into your a cog in the machine with no Free Will and then there's like avatar version of the simulation where you're porting yourself

from on high into like a lower level simulation maybe voluntarily not but like maybe there's some sort of roote access you can get to or something but that that's also like yeah extremely hard to quantify figure out I mean there's like Lee cron and Sarah Walker I really like them they've tried to construct versions of assembly Theory should have them on um and you know they have a certain vision of Free Will and I think you can actually I'm don't have a full account of all this but like I intellectually I'm really

interested in trying to pull together um the wolf for models which I think of like the more fundamental structure of reality the more fundamental sort of mathematical physical picture with the assembly Theory picture which is trying to think about the universe at a slightly higher level of description in terms of information um Constructors right self-replicating information persistence through time and like assembly as like a mathematical framework to think about um you know what sorts of structures the universe is

creating yes um and then I want to take that and I want to combine it with kind of the metaphysics of Cl something close to what like Philip Goff the philosopher has in terms of he sometimes goes between Cosmos psychism protop pan psychism where Consciousness is embedded yes even theard wol models fully idealized structural descri reality right but they don't actually tell us why there's such a thing as qu qualia or phenomenal experience same with assembly theory is this really neat mathematical understanding of how

chemistry tethers into biology but I think uh Consciousness lies outside of it and like why you have extremely high I guess they have like an index right for like an assembly index or whatever assembly number and then a copy right so like why you have complex systems that are like somehow low entropy is like that's this extremely open question and I would say like you brought up Maxwell's demon know the plot of movie tenet like yeah so it's like he in this case he uses it's actually I think a particle accelerator but he figures out

some sort of Maxwell's demon thing where you can reverse you know second law of Thermodynamics reverse entropy and like maybe Consciousness is the only an anti-entropic force or something it's like an creating for there even words in biology you know people sort of make up it's like copy you know where it's or if you look at Carl friston's free energy Principle as famous neuroscientist um you know uh our brains are attractive to are attracted ordered signals and not randomized signals you know and so there's

something about that like seems to I think the um uh assembly theory model is like almost complete but I think that the conscious consciousness thing is really important so I try to think about like imagine you had a God's eyee view of like this abstract Realm that I'm talking about in terms of say the branch graph or even like a more abstract variation of it and you could like you're looking at it trying to find like what are the interesting parts of it right like brains would be you know like we think brains are small

and insignificant because we're just small relatively small creatures on a big on a moderate sized planet around medium sun in the middle of like vast emptiness of you know SpaceTime but this sort of picture reality sort of you know that is the causal graph representation right the sort of coar grained macro scale representation that you know smoothly differentiable you know continuous manifolds allows us to do generativity Etc but it tells us there a different picture of reality this sort of branchial structure and

this kind of correlates to how Lee cron and them were thinking about kind of the universe constructing you know more interesting objects right and more interesting objects essentially are like more information theoretic complex structures that persist Through Time and so that is what the universe creating right the brain is actually one of more interesting objects that the Universe has created thus far you know it's small in space it's very large time and extremely large in kind of complexity space right and so like think

about not us as humans but like like conscious balls right like from like other conscious balls in the universe that might be causally distant they might not be so distant in branchial space and they would have they'd be really interested in finding those other balls of interestingness yes right so be like moths to a flame certain extent right so I think this is what like nhi kind of you know it's they think how could they get here it's like well are they coming here from the planet over there or they coming from

branchi space not that far away yeah right and we just Happ you know like we're just interesting now well when I did this piece with David grush he was like if I were a betting man I thought this was like the most important piece from or part of my interview and it's like a very sort of fleeting moment but he says if I were a betting man I would say that you know they might not be that the nhi be that much more advanced from us but they come from an alternative timeline in which they went the Civil propulsion

route and we went the destu destructive nuclear route so it points to what you're saying and if you have like the economics of the future involving this like weird kardashev scale thing it's like when we create nuclear weapons might be of interest and you might have this sort of Dark Forest analogy Allah the three body problem where until that happens it's actually really adaptive for them to hide themselves and not let themselves be known and then all of a sudden you have to interact in sort of these ephemeral ways to affect timelines

or whatever because we might be blowing ourselves up or something yeah I mean it's interesting I think the Dark Forest books are really good and a explanation exploration is kind of this you know Cosmic Game Theory but I also have I two thoughts on this one is like I think Advanced civilizations like I think people default in the carterv scale to going like bigger and out into the universe and that correlates with the you know the standard Vibe the musk vibe we got to become multiplanetary we're going to do Von noyman self-replicating probes

and we're just going to expand out going to colonize available resources in our like and our future light cone it's kind of the you know Trope in San Francisco like the future light cone of humanity is at stake and all this nonsense right um and uh I think that's it might be wrong right because if you actually look at our trajectory of civilization like yeah we're going to the Moon we're going maybe to Mars and we're putting some effort into that but like what is the vast majority of our effort going into it's building smaller

and smaller structures yes right it's you know it's an neter race right in tsmc you know 7 n 2 met we are trying to carve into you know the smallest scales as possible more information and like interesting you know causal um uh know power and I think instead of thinking about civilizations expanding out into the universe do they just like do they just basically collapse into its basement yeah engineering at the molecular level is like way more interesting than more Brute Force to like move out into that would also kind

of might explain part of the fir Paradox is like where are they we don't see them well it's because you're looking for civilizations that are transforming their local cacticalmain [Music] do whatever right and maybe you get know there arbitrary degrees of of uh energy you can exploit from the quantum vacuum or whatever right and that you can construct know information is information it's scale invariant so like why do you need to construct you know galactic scale comput like computronium you know things versus

like you know just embed things at the plank scale right and then just like you know you just disappear sort of go poof right and then maybe that corresponds with the deeper understanding of you know again this multi-threaded structure of time and you know you're looking to see who's coming in to join your Club yeah right who's about to make that break where they figure out how to engineer themselves not to zoom out and expand but to like go in right join them and everyone that's there you know by assumption say doesn't have any

implicit um technological advantage and there's not necessarily maybe you know assume maybe there's local scarcity but there's no Global scarcity and so the competitive Dynamics are pretty mollified if not extinct and so there's not really this competitive race all you're competing over sort of what sort of cultural sort conscious experiences are you bringing to that party right because everyone maybe discovers the same physics but they got there through a very you know historically contingent Evolution they've got interesting culture

background narratives stories that would be would be interesting to share and exchange is sort of the economy that would be kind of an economy conscious experience right and you know new you civilizations that are nucleating higher level Consciousness and in conscious you know balls that are interesting can engineer technology that allows them to essentially you know instead of upload download themselves right into the basement of reality now they're going to join them right wherever they are might be like oh we're going to scout

out you know some of those civilizations that might be close to doing that right and we're going to you know just assess the cut of their jip right like what is their story what is their are they going to bring here are they going be kind of annoying are they gonna going to are they going like kind of rub rub us the wrong way like and maybe maybe there's some elements of this and this is super speculation which like hey like we seem to be all a part of this Grand Universe mysterious project of creating interesting things like us

and this is where we all end up and so we're like we want to help get the new guys in right and we don't we'd rather you not blow yourself up and Destroy Everything we'd want to he you know get you there and maybe there's you know in this narrative right maybe there's like you know steps in between us and where you were ultimately get to right this sort of what we would call more spiritual enlightened you know Angelic Universal Consciousness whatever right but maybe there's steps in between and maybe some Advanced civilizations

haven't gotten there yet yeah right and they're kind of being dicks right and maybe they're messing with us right and there's maybe those people those TS of nhi they're kind being dicks to us and maybe there's this other you know larger maybe more amorphous group group whatever that sits in slightly different you know adjacency to to our experience of the world and they're like you know they're not Waring gods in that sense but they're like hey we much rather these dickish aliens not mess with you anymore and we

much rather like you guys get on the on the right path to like eventually come join us oh it's so fascinating like a Consciousness economy you can picture like a Consciousness World's Fair where each person brings their world of experience because we're I mean we we're so embedded in this materialist Paradigm which is you know essentially which leads you to a vision of hyper competitive Zero Sum Dark Forest models where it's all you know scraping for available matter in your light cone and it might not be it right because they're

just assuming a certain structure of what those conscious agents are motivated to do yeah right well in fact if there was some holographic overlay of our reality or some higher dimensional space it probably wouldn't be like the materials would be sort of local incentive structures to like mine something much deeper or more fundamental and those things wouldn't be thought of as important to us because you know the materials would be used as levers or whatever carrots and sticks but in fact you know Good Vibes and bad

vibes might represent that I mean it's almost like on one end we have say like a dead AI on the other end we have like an enlightened autistic spiritual being right and you can almost imagine like what we are now is we're kind of we're at this Crux point and you can almost see this play out in kind of our different cultural attitudes and debates of like you know is it all about doubling down on machine intelligence yeah and the fears of what that would mean or do we go into this more enlightened you know spiritualist

you know kind of Consciousness expanding Direction and I almost see that as like okay like I always to the physicist is like take everything to the Limit right to sort of explore the like boundaries of the system and it's like okay well if another civilization ref the that is a natural bifurcation for any any civilization in the universe right where I assume there is conscious is real and fundamental but also you know AIS are possible right and like manipulating matter to you know expand and actual do things in the universe as

possible well there could be civilizations that split and do go both in both directions but what that mean is like imagine a planet that spits off you know both like a colonizing dead mind machine intelligence and then its progenitors kind of go and hide out in the basement and enjoy conscious like the Consciousness economy and the rest of the universe just becomes like kind of a hostile Place yeah but like the cool like the part's down there yeah right and so we're not kind of we're not there yet right but we're

creating so it's like I try to like construct and they just like just those stories or narratives um but that sort of accounts for these different tropes that in the UFO lore the thing basically you the time to Long books are things that elando is hinted at um you know they've drawn and even the book uh cryptos canundrum uhhuh it's they all address this idea of like the the bad nhi or the Mali always um metaphors are always like a swarm mindless soulless yeah a borg like intelligence yes that's usually the metaphors and those are very persistent

tropes and then the alternative like binary opposition is um individualistic but like enlightened conscious connected beings it's why I'm Pro UFO over Pro so if you see Ai and UFOs is to kind of somewhat maybe oppose narratives but both like narratives you should probably be bullish on over the next 10 to 20 or time you know whatever yeah to use annoying adusting term you know I think they'll be more in the zeist like you know increasing oh I mean yeah 10 years might be a bit optimistic yeah it's it's happening now oh

happening now it's happening but you know near term this is these things are just going to grow and I think the AI thing I have really trouble a lot of trouble telling a charismatic story as to how it ends it's sort of just pure Game Theory but like from a consumer or like individual interface perspective kind of dystopian like out maybe outside of like getting uh better natural language interf to like Google or whatever you know like uh so your better recall occurs in like natural language you can understand

better you know I think outside of like decreasing that latency we're kind of decreasing the latency between brain and the consumer internet which is not a positive thing in my opinion so that feels like kind of dystopian and then I'm not even getting into like being able to create a nerve agent with off-the-shelf parts with an llm or whatever like so that feels pretty dark on the UFO side there definitely is this like swarm hive mind component that like scares me a bit whereby you could totally create some opice for like a

clamp down New World Order where like nobody has any sort of autonomy because of this hive mind Invasion the again also could be real and so that could be dystopian but then like maybe there's some version of it where we can like Ascend Consciousness wise and maybe we can meet some you know uh higher higher kardashev scale you know Angelic beings or whatever that are a little less uh interferent in our day-to-day matters and so yeah know it's interesting if you go back to the 20 know it's interesting like the UFO story

and even the Consciousness story are very intertwined in American you know intelligence history right like the discovery of LSD and like you know probably the you know and we had some crap but I think you know we detonated um uh the T ulam device right and it's just like a lot of stuff happened in like the early 1950s you know atomic energy act you know passed that it was like okay and then of course that was obviously how put off involved in both the UFO side of this as well as the Consciousness side of this

and of course MK Ultra was maybe the more weaponized version of the Consciousness research andot viewing programs with the more you know tradecraft sort of application but seems very clear these were sort of interwoven threads um but like those were all behind the curtain right like they were all suppressed at the same time probably for similar reasons right but also had deep political consequences right like the reason why we don't you know Nixon didn't want you know hippies doing LSD and taking acid is like why do I it

undermines the powercal power structure right undermines people's confidence and like you as the authority figure right it's like we can't have that right what's interesting now is that like countercultural Revolution is coming from the elites it's just coming from a different cluster of Elites that now essentially have demonstrated more power than the establishment Elites right and now like that wave of sort I know like a huge cluster Elites in Austin San Francisco regularly do psychedelic drugs and do these like practices almost

are like you know what would be psychological Cults right of trying to like deeply connect and take on special formulations and pay tens of thousands of dollars for these experiences right these are people that run large companies and that are like raising tens of millions of dollars for their startups right and it's like this is a I see this like a blast wave of cultural reform like Reformation that's focused on essentially a Consciousness y you know Paradigm and it just hasn't that it's coming from a counter but it

hasn't spread throughout the whole society but like when it does that will be a dramatic transformation right of just how we situate things and like the basic political economy and like can you imagine like if you know the average Congressman was like doing psychedelics on the weekend and like talking about their their like you know experiences right completely outside the orbon window I expect that to happen the next five or 10 years to I would say I mean maybe two to three don't know right like I would extend that out but I agree with the

trend that's no I mean the rate of change just that I've seen from like the the folks that are currently in the Vanguard and that will probably be you know part of this wave we talked about the beginning of the anti-establishment um you know counter Elites coming in know a good proportion of them have radically different metaphysical worldview yeah right while they're also the Vanguard of techn capital they inherently don't I think trust techn Capital tot they they've used it to acrew power and they've gotten to where

they are but now they have a sense of you know emptiness and anxiety then they want to get meeting somewhere else well it's like you know JD Vance had a you know Venture Capital career prior to becoming VP and like but he's kind of anti-tech and it's like you know's I think the more nuanced you know perspective that uh does Justice to his worldview better is like he's anti- big Tech and like you know Tech malfant but like it is this nuanced worldview where you look at the make America healthy again people or whatever and they

describe it as like a spiritual Cosmic war and like that you wouldn't really hear those terms like you know 10 20 years ago I think that's what has happened right and that's where the UFO thing is is coming into it is like this yeah Parisa and glass noos idea is like it's it's not just a political project for many folks it's like a spiritual or metaphysical project and this is why the sort of you know the UFO thing isn't just a pure nothing bols technological thing because I think you know even the Legacy program knows it's not right

not just like okay they've got some meta material there may maybe there's a tensor you know component to the Ein sign field equations that we can you know rejigger to get some you know anti-g gravitic effect and we can then do you know some crazy ISR orb stuff right great good for you yeah but that's not the big thing no it's clearly not that's the not that's not the thing that they're worried about coming out right I don't think they're worried about the fact that oh we can do Andy gravity and we've got special stuff and maybe China's got

orbs and you know yep that's a thing that's not that's something that would be catastrophic disclosure no right it's something completely different right it's a much bigger you know sense of um transforming how modern civilization thinks of itself absolutely the relationships of existing power structures this is what I know um Sheen has talked about as you know he represents you know a spy for certain Legacy institutional structure right he's the he's chief he was the chief of station I mean he was the uh Chief legal counsel for

for uh for the Jesuits um which you know it's like what people ask like how does Danny Shia know all this stuff it's like he's just a lawyer who happens to be you know a Jesuit kind of you know policy guy was like no he was like chief of station for the Jesuit you know intelligence right like in DC he's like you know he's a spy fundamentally he's he's like but a scholar spy coming out of that Jesuit tradition like they're the oldest Spy organization on he's like Forest Gump or zelic he literally is in pops up every

American conspiracy but like what you you think that was a coincidence right like no but I also find it super like how is he still alive yeah yeah right this why no that it's the aam raser explanation I mean it's also fascinating that like certain of so I think the JFK for example example is like he he's pretty unbiased there like he wasn't directly involved in any of that stuff and so like I actually think like that account is fully right when it comes to Shen and then he'll tell the story of Watergate and he'll be like CU he represented

James McCord who was like he you know doul is number two for a long time and he was like the main architect behind he was like him and G Gordon ly main Architects behind Watergate and I'm like wait so what about James McCord like he was you know CIA and like he'll say like well James McCord you know he wanted to be on the inside and he wasn't on the inside he didn't know quite what he was doing so like he ordered to you know uh B burglarize the DNC and Bug Larry O'Brien's phone but like he wasn't clued in and so

got really ped about that you know whatever and I'm like dude that's not the story like I think mcord KN knew way more and I that that's the part where I'm like okay Sheen might have you know some interests there and like protecting him and he was defending yeah this brings me a slightly different tangent but like thinking about the story right people it goes back to like thinking um the What actors are we modeling in this whole narrative right we tend to bucket these Bland terms of like the CIA Lo Martin you know the Vatican it's just

these Blobs of institutional references monoliths and it's just not how in practice it plays out like even at the micro scale it's like they are very individual you know actors that are aligned in very kind of or complex overlapping relationships with each other and intelligence you know services this is how it there's always like a a fractal structure of compartmentation and like true um you know who's really got power right is often opaque even to the people who think they've got all the power because they never really know

right and even in those you know the that the high water mark when it was really tightly concentrated there were a lot of people with outsize influence and they can kind of construct these vertically integrated bureaucratic systems um you know that was still know there was a lot of you know interesing fights and you know subterfuge and always like you know my Deputy might be trying to take my job sorts of Dynamics but then I think it sort of it got disintegrated or fractalized in the you know last 30 40 years but and also globalized in the

sense that you have like I think a much more complex set of actors that have a lot of resources right the intelligence communi the big baddy has all the information like Google Amazon these guys have probably more information neogovernment organ like pppa mongen has written about this brilliant Insight she's like Amazon Jeff Bezos probably has access to more intelligence and better intelligence than the NSA does in many ways cuz he can look at maybe not individual level intelligence but like he manages all the

in intelligence databases for the government right and he can detect you know he knows what everyone's buying right he can detect the mood of everybody totally right the NSA doesn't have access to that information he knows so that's probably why he refused to do the endorsement because he has probably some proprietary analytical model of like everyone's buying and purchases decisions they've constructed some fancy AI That's like predictive of their you know which books have they ordered how does it correlate to their

to their Twitter views Etc right and they just know immediately why do you think Elon went all in because knew sentiment anal these guys knew sentiment analysis they've done the correlations they know exactly what the what the outcome is interesting aside on Bezos his grandfather I think was the head of the atomic energy commission Lawrence P yeah he was the director of the western division uh Harold momr told me that story um he's now come public with it was yeah so that quick finish that thread is yeah hel

rren senior adviser to Kennedy Nixon Ford Etc wonderin mamir Prodigy probably saved nuclear war under you know when chis L wanted to go he was sent the tank and you know sort of held Cur L back that's amazing it's literally like the doctor strange love scene yeah he was sent when he was like 26 27 sent into the tank you know by um Kennedy and was just like stall him out these guys are like they're ready to go oh that's crazy and and he was like Curtis there with his with his generals and they're like I like we need to go and you know let's

like I just need to we drop one just to like prove resolve and or we have like air crew morale issues is I mean everyone knows like chryst was absolute insane he was willing to go to full nuclear war and malrin played his part in holding them back um and then was sent out to uh Los Alamos I think or Albuquerque in 1963 where he met with Lawrence because was there to do the design cost build of our anti anti-ballistic missile system which at the time was premise on nuclear weapons right because the only way to

feasibly destroy incoming icbms or missiles coming in was uh to throw up nukes and try to blow them up in the atmosphere and so uh you know he had to get read into to you know he was basically there to like manage the project for that right how much is it going to cost what are we going do like and both on Department of energy side as well the dod side and yeah he met with Lawrence PGE who told him that you know we have been recovering and trying to reverse engineer uh UFO objects and then 10 years later I think

he had a private meeting with Richard Bissell who was the uh number two at CIA in charge of all the you know dirty tricks covert operations stuff for like 15 20 years didn't he create the nro as well he created the nro scouted and established Area 51 You Know Rich Abell was in charge of all that stuff from the 50s and 60s richell told him in a private briefing that um of quote otherw World Technologies yeah that they'd been working on and so he was kind of read into some of that stuff um he's made public some of that um and uh yeah so

that's just an example right he was like kind of the Shadow Kissinger for most those decades like he was the guy that got stuff done he had back Channels with the Soviets do you think Kissinger knew about the UFO thing cuz Kissinger was very in he was charge of the whatever the cover action committee or like the 303 committee um he definitely probably knew whether he was in charge of it I think the structure of this I don't really understand but um I think there was awareness of these programs right uh this kind of peripheral

knowledge right it's like if you're going to come close it like if you're going to be in the exact if you're going to be just in the immediate periphery of it you need to know it exists and need to know not go in y and like where to avoid and throw other people off y so there's like you know it's kind of there there's a boundary layer they need to establish around that around those activities I was reading this book called UFO crash by this UFO researcher William Steinman about the Aztec crash in 1948 talks about this head of special projects at R

Patterson who came over uh with operation paper clip his name is Eric Henry Wing signman says this is the guy who like I can't get anything on the door shuts in my face every time I inquire about him he and his boss h a k you know and then he just goes on or whatever and I was just thinking who is HK I like Oh Henry a Kissinger and then he look up his kind of career history and like he was very embedded in the atomic projects and so yeah I you know Harold worked they were like were like twin people throughout most of

those administrations where you know Harold was you know self-consciously not a self-promoter he was not someone who was looking for the power he was recognized and his survivability was because he was going to be the guy working behind the scenes executing not taking credit just the guy who would get stuff done right and that's what you know whereas Kissinger was the guy who would like you know walk over people's necks right and but they were in equal positions right they were trusted and they were often used by presidents like

you know to check each other like malmgren was used explicitly by Nixon to check Kissinger in many negotiations to like confirm that kinger wasn't going rogue on various things and the whole China thing the back Channels with the Soviets malr was Nixon's like you know confirmation you know route right because he didn't fully trust Kissinger to do all this stuff because ker was kind of a rogue guy right thought he was the President right so malgren was there to kind of like act as a bit check um that's amazing and so yeah he

malr was trusted by multiple presidents over many decades and yeah he is now coming out and saying nhi are real we have their stuff I don't know guys like but that's a good example right because he's former CIA and like you have a lot of guys who are former CIA it seems like there is some implicit imperative in one branch of the CIA that is pro some form was never CIA oh he's never CIA okay he was a PhD Economist okay came into the defense department but then actually did mostly like trade and economic stuff for the

latter half of his career but he was you know he was fully cleared into the Q stuff he was cleared in tssci but your point is like but he met with the CIA obviously with Richard Bissell he met with Lawrence G and doe he was but was more of a higher level political guy um interesting saying okay good to know it feels like there is yeah to your to your earlier Point there's a part of CIA that is pro some form of disclosure and then there's probably a part that is extremely anti- disclosure and then there are these fums that have like

these local incentives around like we have some IP we kind of want to monetize it we feel somewhat patriotic and like you know want to refresh the talent pool and realize we don't have access to the best and brightest stem Talent out there and so there are all these weird Dynamics where I've I don't know after studying this stuff probably similar time frame as you like four or five years you always want to know like who's in charge who's like the ultimate gatekeeper and it feels like there is it's this like disjointed cargo cult or

something yeah I agree don't think there is a um like single cabal that has all this information I think it's been carved up it's decayed I think like all the other institutions Al you know why disclosure is happening now kind of an overdetermined question right is it the China competition thing is an exogenous time skill associated with the nhi themselves is it um or essentially just the ability of what used to be a relatively coherent unified um set of Legacy programs has just decayed and lost its ability to you

know maintain control like all our other institutions right it's like why was why was grush this kind of do good or Millennial able to kind of like in a year kind of just be like yep I figured it out right it's like you know was that just because I mean grush is really good but it's probably because like the Legacy program has probably like decayed a bit right it's probably become unwieldy pieces of it is start to like you know become structured in these these bureaucratic systems and clearly people even he would said this in my

interview with him people on the inside want this stuff together they were extremely disgruntled they're like this doesn't work at all the way it's been set up yeah which is also exact symptom of institutional Decay and sort of sclerosis like probably during the vanover bush there' be nobody like that be like we got this [ __ ] on loock it's streamlined it's efficient we got the best and brightest we're High highly motivated we're oriented aligned flourishing moisturized we're good right and now it's like you know decayed

there's Bob and bobberts sitting in some locky warehouse getting paid $200,000 a year when their best friends are over at palent making twice that and you know they're making no progress after 10 years and they're sitting in a cubicle with like a diagram of material that they half understand but can't know the full specs of because like it's prob an extremely stressful environment because they're telling you if you tell anybody we're going to kill you and you know don't really what's going on you only see your little

piece of it so sounds cool but now you're like trapped because you can't really leave that program very easily so now there's like a lot of stress and and tension built up inside these programs and then the ability for managers who themselves probably are similarly positioned relative to the power structure hierarchy that they're embedded in are also feeling a bit like this is not working this and like you get you reach a critical mass but that's why I'm like why don't I mean if you can somehow front run immunity via

legislature why don't you just immediately let the cat out of bag on just the existence of these programs maybe there's some ontological Shock around like topof the pyramid knowledge of you know nhi Vis some Theory of Everything that freaks the average person out I don't know but like the existence of the programs if China and Russia have their own programs which it seems like they do then just admit that we have these programs and then start recruiting people for the programs like you would think that we'd have sort of a

Manhattan Project 2.0 going on right now given the world that we're in why doesn't that like start immediately I mean you could do all the counterfactuals right and this is where the basic logic of like hey that would be a good idea runs up against like our existing political system right and so like at least I've heard again on firsthand knowledge of these things that like you know as this ball ball started really rolling in 2019 2020 right with the UAP task force doing their job Congressional mandate digging

in figuring the stuff out Carl Etc everyone kind of being like yep and we're going to report back Congress Congress starts getting you know this sense like there's some weird [ __ ] happening right now what are we going to do about it we need to have more formal mechanisms of accountability and Reporting we need to kind of create a belly button or bridge between Congress these committees and the Pentagon the IC pass the you know different you know legislation starting 2021 2022 with National Defense authorization ACT

stand up you know whatever aom Sig and then arrow and then it was essentially bureaucratically undercut you know was Office of Naval intelligence UAP task force who was kind of I think had bureaucratic you know access to grind against the CIA and NSA and the Air Force you know reason why it was over there and then of course when it moves into Arrow it's kind of compromised by the CIA Air Force guys right like Kurt Patrick um and so that was kind of like okay move counter move yeah what do we next okay pressure Etc go up the chain to you know

the like National Security Council brief uh um Jake solivan on that Jake SUV's like crap I got way too much going on man I got like Ukraine war popping off I got China to deal with got President Biden who like no politics aside like maybe not you know compis menst to make these decisions yes like sorry but like no we can't throw this out there right now like go and just get away from me right like tell me what's going on I mean know Ross colart says that he know knows uh that um Sal Jake was in at least one briefing uh with I think was on

the Senate maybe more where he was getting access to you know some of the firsthand testimony on this stuff and you know they're just try like the existing power structures the Committees the NC leadership is trying to get their arms around this and then they're trying to figure out what their next move is and meanwhile they got other stuff on their plate and you know politics is politics and they go okay well we'll just kick this can down to the next admin right whatever happens not my problem like you to think that the

individual decision- making of a executive branch appointee is always like I I'm here for a year two three maybe my life is already extremely stressful this does not ACR any personal benefit only risk yeah right so I have every incentive to kick this can and the Senate who think of themselves as being you know the sort of criterian guard democracy they're like well I have no real urgency they thinking that's like I'll be here forever I got no term limits I got no competitive race you know i' take this as like a you know

next year's thing with the next thing so you know one has like zero urgency because of political incentives to just not have it be a problem one has not much urgency because they you know the Senate is a little bit this is why I think more action has been in the house yes because they feel like they can kind of play in that Niche right they can get more attention maybe more outside um support that's why I think the you know house has been the locus of political but that's just my political you know diagnosis but in terms of the

basic question of like um the accountability over these programs like that's that's the function of this UAP disclosure act that's why came from the you know that's why it came from Schumer rounds Jill bran you know Hinrich Todd young Etc um because its basic function is not to you know do disclosure now it's to like put in place mechanism of accountability because they have credible evidence indicates that has been lacking y uh including two elected officials in the executive branch there's only two president vice

president so the Senate is basically saying in their findings that they believe credible evidence indicates that relevant UAP records have been inappropriately classified and withheld from appropriate you know elected officials in both the legislative and executive branch seems like a pretty clear diagnosis of the problem but they were just like admiring the problem there's no urgency to fix it we'll see what happens with this new Administration coming in you know Trump's speech last night I don't know when this will be recorded but like he

gave this like three minute kind of glass no speech we talked about and it's was like you know that could be the mechanism right like who knows I think this will all be up for grabs but now there might be an urgency or it might be opportun opportunity IC mechanisms for you know well as much I have different opinions on all the you know quotequote controversies people have is like well maybe you should prioritize this right Hunter B laptop stuff does that really matter relative to this UFO stuff like no I know you

got an A to grind but like just by gon be gon like I always do every time I'm like maybe this doesn't matter because we're you know in a multi-polar nuclear world and you have all this kind of prosaic stuff going on but then I'm like this feels like the Archimedes lever if the existence of nonhuman intelligence and you know sort of like it begs this question is like are the wars we're in right now somewhat proxy wars you know if can't really say like yeah we have like this material you know in our possession uh and we do

you know think that there is intelligence out there based on all these kind of consistent observable properties but like uh business as usual as far like you know General macro you know geopolitics or whatever and so I know mean that would be mean I spent a lot of time thinking about intersection of geopolitics the monetary system and um you know these potential phase transitions or like tail risks and this has to be like I've talked about this in more like traditional settings I've talked to folks that were associated with the fed

and the treasury Department is like guys like you're this is a head in the sand moment right now like you need and um Helen McCall wrote a white paper for the soul foundation on this exact question of essentially uaps and Financial stability risk and it's just like because of social taboo institutional resistance there's not even paying attention to it Y and the the the possibility of these things happening very quickly and with surprise to those other institutional systems is a big problem right and I think that's

what they're struggling with is like it's not NE like I think there's a lot of concerns but I don't know if they're truly concerned about like the median Americans like having a freak out because the media American freaks out about all this stuff the time and they probably like won't believe half of it anyway I think they worry about like the median sort of Mandarin technocrat at the FED like not showing up for work and then the payment system doesn't work right and it's like how do you ensure that set of you know the

folks that have just now taken a massive hit right like those folks are psychologically very disturbed by Trump's Administration coming in and there will be you know I think significant purges to those bureaucracies so those technocrat managers are going to be you know facing a major brunt here you dro the UAP stuff on that I think there is a risk I'm just speaking analytically of there being being just like collapse of these institutional bureaucracies um you need to plan for that you need to like anticipate and educate like tell

them it's all good like this is just a new thing we got to handle like don't freak out come to work tomorrow right yeah um and I think ironically ironically but like and this might I don't want to be too um uh you know sort of ethnocentric here but like you in general I think you know China has not as much of a materialist worldview as like the median assumption like you talk the average person there like you know they have kind of a long history their civilization you know it's sort of a spiritualist baseline even though the

Communist party is you know nominally you know atheistic but like people light prayer candles all the time you know light incense go worship at Buddhist temples in fact they've been spiking recently because people are trying to you know pray for good luck as the economy goes on the toilet um but like they don't have this they haven't haven't grown up their civilization and kind of the cernic Western dichotomist View sort of this inherent dualist world of you know the sort ineffable spiritual realm which you go

to when you die could pray to but it's kind of like a hard cut between that and like materialist Society you get rich you fight Wars right and whereas I think the basic or so in general China Chinese Society I think could probably accommodate something like this in a more smooth fashion than maybe Western Society could on top of the fact that China could leverage potential malens on the west part Us in particular as a propaganda uh you know Leverage why haven't they that's a question that I have kind of openly is

like China and Russia it is clear that if you're like a deep UFO researcher there are things that they've interfaced with with the UFO question like George nap went to like Russia and brought back all these files about like their activities when it comes to UFOs uh China's published a couple of papers around like tracking UFOs but it seems like they're by and large pretty silent on the topic like they're not super progress Rive or forwarded about like propagandizing the topic or like being really open about it why is just the

US well inherently I guess to first order one is a closed system one's an open system right so def despite the fact that we pointed maybe some Rogue elements in the bureaucracy like we're fundamentally is an open somewhat chaotic system where folks like Lando and Christopher melon can go out there and can go on podcasts and release videos to the media and can have this open discussion stimulated in Twitter and podcast and whatnot but if the the game theory stuff if the why haven't they tried um yeah like why

why you know if some of this stuff is getting reverse engineered and weaponized I think China hasn't I think in terms of order priority this is speculation I think the order of priority is first and you know first second third fourth is exploit the technology to close the Strategic military and intelligence Gap that's it right and so anything that might undermine that right is ruled out right so first order of business is like build build inspired Tech build that scale iron it out get it built and they have the ability to do that they have the

ability to like if they typical us sap is a thousand people right for whatever secret R&D program they can have 10 50,000 people y right um and you know threat incredibly threatened actual goog punishments right if you speak at I turn and you know actually have like can almost imagine it's probably the like the vavar bush sitting there right that is like because they've been building these new in bureaucracies theyve got more energy they've got like a clear Target beat beat the US Etc um and if you look at there's some circumstantial stuff this

is really speculative my China SME colleagues will be like ah you're really going on a Lim in there but um were some recent purges in the last few years in like the rocket forces which you know if you imagine like which part of their pla structure would somehow feasibly touch this it's like you know that that's like where the nuclear forces are right so like if they had their own version of a program um like where would it be it probably would there and of course the pla has been historically corrupt you know bribe to get

promotions and whatnot so like if I imagine a very hypothetical scenario which is when you say China has had a program well what does that really mean like China has a program does the pla have a program that maybe president XI didn't know about right and maybe president XI discovered the program in the course of his various purges that he was going through ensuring loyalty and then he figured out this stuff maybe didn't know when he first came into power but now he does know and he's been going all systems go build

me some you know everything like this is where all of our Surplus capital is going I don't care about the real estate market like screw it we're going all in on this and is that leading to a freakout in the US right stre technology surprise right uh strategic foreign technology surprise because uh oh we're getting intelligence now maybe the other parts of intelligence apparatus that we've got that is constantly monitoring China constantly monitoring you know their secret research programs which physicists and engineers where are they

going what new facilities are being built whatever we're constantly monitoring all that stuff right so there's like you know Normy analysts inside the CIA and you know NGA whatnot that are interpreting all intelligence they go China's like doing some crazy cool like weird stuff over here they're doing all these people that were doing this Weird Science and weird research they're now like they all disappeared and we think they're over here and we don't know what they they're working on why and then meanwhile this other you know their

neighbor across the hall who's read into the program is like a [ __ ] and then they go what do we now right we think China's figured some stuff out we don't know what they fig out but like it that would generate an immense amount of anxiety and would probably put some more senior political leadership in like to C mode mhm so this UAP task force that is kind of responsible for the Contemporary conversation around UFOs how is it assembled yeah so I think it's really interesting kind of bureaucratic story of you know essentially Congress hearing

some stuff coming out of the 2017 2018 stories and some back Channel conversations that we need to have a formal group Char charged to like dig into this question and get people that are you know fully credentialed cleared you know have the relevant um sort of analytic bent to go out into the the Wilderness of bureaucratic system and try to hunt down these alleged Legacy programs and that's essentially the story that we hear in some of the self-reports obviously you know limited by what Carl Nell and David grush and recently some

individuals have come out and then the up task force that we've seen descriptions of its kind organizational structure like any other inter agency task force it's got complicated reporting lines you've got a lot of people coming in from different agencies and the basic understanding I had it wasn't really like a full-time gig for most people but there were I think some individuals that were tasked with a much more substantial and serious responsibility like rush and there were others that were sort of maybe doing it

in sort of a part-time basis and helping to assess you know imagery and write reports and whatnot um you know there's I think a loose Confederation of additional sort of Liaisons that were pulling in different disciplines but I was told something very interesting and again it's kind of like you hear these things and come from people that you otherwise trust and have you know professions and experience to sort of back up their claims and it's tough to kind of fully you know uh calibrate how much stock you put into it but know what

I was told is that one you know when any um new government program gets especially sensitive government program uh sometimes they'll repo graph some members of the team especially those that are involved in the more sensitive aspects of its activities you know in polygraphs and US Government um are designed you know in many ways to to root out essentially disloyalty right so they'll ask you basic questions like you know have you ever supported a terrorist group have sort of you know supported Insurrection to overthrow the

government have you um ever know had any unreported contacts with a foreign government essentially the sort of Counter Intelligence scope um sort of polygraphs uh there's another scope of polygraphs called a lifestyle polygraph it's like you know you're gambling your sexual activities Etc to kind of understand are there any things that could be used to Blackmail you so standard sets of questions what I was told is that there was a additional question or two added to that sort of screening polygraph which is uh have you

had any uh relationships with I haven't talked about or um loyalty to any non-human faction that's crazy and I thought it was a joke I thought it was like pull my leg this is not real like no apparently apparently it's true or apparently was reported as true um I don't have no evidence I've not heard that confirmed um but it does kind of then trigger this other set of conversations was very uncomfortable right which is like well what the nature of the interaction between Human Society human institutions and non-human

intelligence right if going back to our more abstract conversation is that there's a potential set of channels you know maybe more you know um foundational kind of Consciousness level interactions or communication or what have you well okay in principle there's like some interaction taking place between members of the human population and non-human intelligence we just you know if accept that that's like what you're what what you're accepting as happening then you have to access well could versions of that type communication

be happening with elements of the Legacy program or other elements of human society and that's a much more uncomfortable conversation right we're much more ironically like easy or willing to accept parts of this sort UFO lore that involve like you know kind of semi- random people having somewhat anomalous encounters right like Chris bledo or somebody you know smart guy normal dude but just has this really anomolous if that was aior us intelligence official be a very different story y right be like why is it happening that

person right and so that raises lots of other questions right but I think there are questions you kind of have to take seriously in kind of this branching exploration of the basian tree of possibilities here that once you accept at least the premise of a certain foundational um set of facts well then you have to take seriously all the branching implications of Alternatives that become potentially maybe more plausible given that uh that that update and so yeah this is this does I don't know where you what what to go with that other than just

say that's potential scenario to think about anecdotally I know of one extremely senior intelligence official who had a pretty gnarly abduction experience along with his wife and so I don't I don't want to say think think he's going to be public with the story saying but and that's this whole thing becomes very uncomfortable for people because it's one thing to intellectually grock the possibilities of non-human intelligence in the universe and maybe this metaphysical story that we've just been talking about

it's a you know it's another thing also to think of maybe there's like advanced intelligence designing probes that are exploring civil you know solar systems or you know setting light sales out and we can get some of their Advanced Tech and figure out how they work like that would be groundbreaking but it would you know something that wouldn't disturb us right it's quite disturbing to understand that like the sanctity of your yourself the sanctity of your your mind even can be violated at will by a higher form of intelligence that

sort of cuts to the core our sense inherent individual sovereignty as well as oural sovereignty right and I think that's truly I think why the sort of the the impact of disclosure is so concerning for a lot of folks is that it threatens the sort of core basis modern human civilization right the sense of the Integrity self and the Integrity of the autonomous Sovereign structures we build as as autonomous individuals meaning our political systems and the bureaucracies that help us manage them um and that that is a hard thing to swallow right

and and to understand analyze um but in many respects it's like a more exotic flavor of a traditional Counter Intelligence issue right which is like you know we exist in a competitive geopolitical environment where states are constantly trying to um compromise each other's systems right recruit spies understand plans and intentions of their respective adversaries or even friends and interpenetrate each other's bureaucratic systems with assets or agents or informers so if you're modeling human societies actually not

being um uh the sole species or intelligence that you're trying to assess there's another set of stakeholders then maybe it's fair to assume that they would conduct similar activities yeah uh that other states do right so they would have their own tradecraft and infiltrating mechanisms and yeah it probably wouldn't be the same that we would expect China to do right but it would be something that if you are investigating this phenomenon you'd have to you know assume is a is possibility right yeah it's sort of like the book childhood's End by

Arthur C Clark or something that wouldn't land on the White House lawn they would sort of you know incept all sorts of stuff in society and culture and yeah and it gets to the most difficult part of this whole conversation which is like the question that David grush you know very pointedly dodged in testimony which was like agreements yep seems like an absurd question how can human society as you know primitive Apes with nukes how can we form an agreement what would agreement be based on like what sort of contractual dispute resolution mechanism

is there right I think it's a it's maybe a um I think category error maybe just the term of art language is not being appropriately applied um Co coerced agreement or something but I mean the thing agreement that I used to say was probably BS and I you know still have trouble even like with the words coming out of my mouth just saying this but it's like this 1954 idea that Eisenhower like made a treaty that the Grays could like collect biological specimen do medical experiments on our population and you know we would

wouldn't destroy ourselves with nuclear weapons or whatever you know in return something like that mhm I used to think that that was like complete and total BS I mean you hear something like that it's funny actually I think Eisenhower's granddaughter like stands by that fully but like she's also into a lot of other kind of quacky stuff so I don't know don't know how to probability weight the whole thing but I've heard from some pretty senior you know impressive people in uh the Navy that like might be real and like that uh genetic

collection on the part of these Grays just ended and there extremely concerned that the genetic collection ended because why would you end a genetic collection period Well it might be right before some cataclysmic event because if you wanted to Red diversify the population after such an event you know you you'd want to complete your collection right before that occurred or whatever if you understood know how these timelines sort of work on a more root root layer so I don't know what to make of that it's you know

kind of like your story it feels very apocryphal and it's hard you have to slap some probability on it but yeah I mean the other piece of is you know where people have alluded to similar things not the genetic collection thing which I think is you know don't have a whole lot of weight assigned to that sort of thing but um Timmy F Taylor right the Anan sort of but now you know well kind of known NASA program manager um that's been deeply involved in this stuff and spooky spooky subjects for a long time you know

when he was ask know what's the hierarchy by Dan Dana Pula he's like you know I forget the exact text onomy but it was like you know normal humans like the intelligence services like some elements of the intelligence services and he said like aliens then like God or something right and but his implication in that middle part was that there are some elements of human institutions that have almost like an ontologically different status in his his sense of the hierarchy and you could read that one of two ways just like you

know sometimes people in the intelligence Community just have such enormous egos that they actually think that no they're different and better special in fundamental way of you know the unwashed masses and that this hierarchy of being that heits you know his sense of the role that cohort of human individuals is so significant they Merit being noted as a different class an alternative explanation is that he's referring to a non-human element within our human bureaucracies yes those are the only two ways I think to interpret it right yes

an outsized ego or he's referring to non-human presence in human bureaucracies yes I don't you know and so those are just the two implic are the two I think only alternative implications of his claim so then to address which one you think he's going towards I think Prima fasi or prior has to be much more likely that it's his ego but I don't think it's zero and there's other circumstantial EVS about his his career other things he said maybe he's painting trying to draw in a dotted line to that other implication well the here's a

fascinating thing about him is that he seemed to I guess flash all these like three-letter agency credentials to Pula according to her and I trust she's a friend of mine um but then I sort of back channeled with some other Intel people and I was like what's like this guy's a NASA Mission controller like why does he have like all these clearances associations with other agencies or whatever they're like no he's just a na normal NASA Mission controller and then it begs this question of like he's a normal NASA Mission controller who thinks he's part

of a secret space program where he says his superiors don't even know he's in the program yeah and he gets these downloads about what to do it's almost like this Network when Chris bledo sees sees you starts to see UFOs they show up around his house he shows up in Diana pula's life when she transitions from following uh kind of Catholic purgatory and writing a book called Heaven Can Wait on that and realizing that actually comports with all these like ancient probably UFO experiences and so you start to ask these deeper

questions of like is the chain command that we even know the real chain of command or is somebody like Timothy Taylor you know uh kind of following higher marching orders or I mean does he think I mean some people fall into Colts belief where they actually think that they're taking instructions from a it's like traditional Cults right of the humdrum you know UFO cult variety honestly like they believe sometimes that their leader is uh a hybrid or special creature that has been sent down to guide their special flock right and

is imbued with special wisdom about maybe even some future cataclysm event and then the in group is going to be specially prepared to enter into that event and will be you know uniquely positioned or rewarded for their belief in the postevent right traditional religious eological visions and so you you know just because has some program managers doesn't mean he's immune to the traditional psychological vulnerabilities and tropes of you know human human psychology um so that's that I just take it as like these are the

different Alternatives you got to like you got a wa but of course you know people have people yeah different takes on something like that um but yeah it does yeah space is clearly like where the line between standard bureaucracy government programs and like weird Voodoo stuff starts to come in because you go all the way back to beginning of NASA it's like now you're not like it's just unambiguous historical fact that like Jack Parsons was doing like Crowley Sex Magic in the desert with founder of of Scientology Elon hover just you can't

avoid that that's what he was doing right and he was like getting information somehow that was like impressing one of Braun you know it's like indisputable just historical facts right just what why right what is happening and then all the weird stuff about how we name our rockets and people claiming that we do various rituals associated with rocket launches like it's just happening right humans are weird so sometimes we do weird stuff we're very superstitious right so sometimes we can layer those superstitions into pretty complex

narratives that maybe reinforce each other and insulate bureaucracy over decades but it's just weird you can't just ignore it you can't ignore the fact pattern and actually if you look at the founders of all rocket programs CH chovsky in Russia was the same way he believed had this worldview called cosmism where he thought he was in touch with Angelic beings and in his case it was more of an Orthodox Christian veneer but there were protocols involved in rocket launches and then Von Bron and Herman oorth you know oorth was Von Bron's Mentor went

through weird neopagan rituals that you know were in the kind of Nazi space program or that most SS officers actually had to go through and so yeah beg some really interesting and you had Launchpad 33 for NASA and then you also had Buzz Aldren who's a Freemason literally stake out the moon if you know that with a freem masonic flag or whatever it's all these questions are you know well and I think most Observer most like because in our modern civilization we think of Technology as mostly associated with like corporate strategies investment

returns you know uh cool gadgets like in the history especially you probably if you look back you probably find versions of this in early technological paradigms but like the 20th century technological paradigms our breakthrough Technologies all had these deeply embedded spiritual religious overtones or undertones and they carry through to today right so like I am become Shiva destroy of Worlds Oppenheimer right obviously Jack Parson's launching Rockets um the the Soviet equivalent and then now right like what is motivating the kind

of this metaphysical ethos behind AGI they actually think they're creating an AGI God that theological vision of Humanity's future will need to be manifested through their technological projects like that we just accept that as like oh the San Francisco Bros they think they're making the AGI guy like some people like literally believe it right like Sergey Bren he thinks it's specious to like pref privilege human interests over the you know ostensible future interests of this much more advanced human intelligence that

will be like our godchild um Endowment for the cosmos it's like hey this is not that much different right like our most leading techn technological Visionaries you know people that we're putting in charge of like driving for technological progress you know sometimes wedded to quite radical religious spiritual belief systems yeah and it makes most of us uncomfortable I no buddy like I just get me the quarterly returns juice the stock and my make number go up right you know meanwhile like there's there something else right there and we

just somehow we just prefer not to pay attention to that we try not report but doesn't mean it's not there you know the Air Force funded that movie Stargate you know the Kurt Russell sg1 thing yeah it was like in the pyramid or whatever there's a portal and I sometimes I don't know think about uh this guy towns and brown mid-century inventor that I think you know made much more progress than meets the eye when tying electromagnetism and gravity and some sort of theoretical model we probably didn't understand at

the time but he was obsessed with travel behind Clos doors it's like all he would talk about with this like friends and family and so I do sometimes wonder you know if you like watch the movie contact Carl Sean like if there is something going on that is much deeper than space SpaceX this like earth-based obviously very important space company but like if there isn't something much more fundamental especially in the world of nhi predicated you know if that stuff is real do we have some sort of like joint program with them or you know

like I don't know is there something much deeper when it comes to the American space programs I mean yeah mean El has been famously very like you know dismissive of the alien thing he's like I've got all my starlink terminals up there you know if anything we had to like move out of the way any alien spacecraft like we would know it which is on the surface of It kind an absurd thing he's a very smart guy yeah right and people just accept that like that's an absurd explanation like what are you talking about like yeah well for

one like your tiny satellite space is huge yeah you're not going to have like navigate over just like an inert rock that happens to be from an alien civilization going to know how navigate into space like we launch stuff space all the time y you don't have to move your satellites we figured out that out I would assume any advanced intelligence wouldn't have to navigate wouldn't just be like Oh I'm going to run into that thing please starlink move out of the way right just an absurd statement right as if he thinks and he's

a smart guy right it's like what are you talking about man and then more recently he's he's he was asked the question about Legacy programs at like a town hall thing he Trump campaigning for Trump and he said um well you know if US government has interesting technology they should make it available to us I saw that he walked it back was big that's an important Line in the Sand from previous comments right so I think he's in an interesting position um so this is a bit more speculative very on me but um uh you know Howard Hughes of

course you know similar figure to Elon in many ways like eccentric genius outsized personality connected to defense intelligence you know this is like you know Larger than Life figure mhm in the 50s and 60s um but he was like deeply connected to the morbin church Church kind of contr like the uh his like senior managers and handlers for all of his corporate apparatus were essentially Mormon um they call them the Mormon Mafia right their two brothers Frank gay I think the other guy and um they actually towards as

Howard Hughes kind of lost a grip on reality they kind of took over his Affairs right and this was the same group that was doing all the covert actions for the CIA lar Explorer Etc and potentially even doing the hits on Kennedy both kennedies by the way yeah and you know this is a whole separate tangent of like you know we think about are current state institutions as being highly depersonalized you know a religious aaction just you know appoes with technocratic confidence Etc but that's kind of naive right like American

history is complicated and there's you know there are other institutional forces that sometimes have a little bit more ingroup loyalty and solidarity I think the Mormon church and um you know business uh and political um structures are quite coherent and have endured over 150 years longer than the CIA for examp has been in around and that for example the Mormon uh uh Community set up shop in Utah they wanted to create their own state right own sort of Theocratic State um Jus Smith actually may have been assassinated by agents of the government

there may be part people of you know he was trying to campaign essentially for president um and like convert our civil our society our constitutional government to like a kind of sort democratic Theocratic sort of pathway um and they wanted to set up their own state in Utah they had their own Constitutional Convention and convert turned into the sort of state constitution um and uh they called it Deseret was going to be the state of Utah um this is a long tangent to say the the Elon connection is elon's like

basically like sort of Handler his like the man who manages all of his Affairs he's like sits on the board of xai sits on the board of noral Link or is the president I think of noral Link um manages his family office all his Bitcoin and other crypto transactions um started and run private security company for him handles basically most of his you know he's he's his personal fixer this got is Jared birchall um he's comes out of like a Mormon Elder he's the guy um and it's just like a interesting symmetry right between this industrial techno

technological kind of industry Titan uhhuh just happens to have like most of his life's Affairs his business being managed by you know a guy who's very well connected in the Mormon Community ah and that's almost like you know ice and warfare to the Howard Hughes story in many ways and if you look into you know the Mormon Church um I mean again nothing against any Rel religion but like they have been really successful at essentially penetrating most of our intelligence system because what like what is the Mormon

Community really good at right they generate lots of like children and they TR they train them in multiple languages they send them out in missions around the world they don't do drugs do alcohol they're very like very loyal to an in group they respect hierarchy this exactly what like a c officer FBI officer NSA person is going to be like y you know that's excellent recruit and that's exactly what's happened like FBI talked about how like bringham young is their top Source um yeah they said Mormons Marines and mbas yes what was

interesting so Utah data center it's now Declassified this code name what the NSA set up there then the largest sort of single data center in Utah back the 2005 something like that and the code name for it was bumblehive and bumblehive is essentially this what was the symbol of Deseret um so some weird stuff there right and if you actually look into Mormonism it's kind of a UFO religion oh for sure Earth is not the only had a UFO religion that would be it 100% right um and you know Joseph Smith has contacts get downloads codifies those into

essenti a system of rules he's leading his flock to establish a political order and then they become you know deeply embedded in you know the structures of our int of our intelligence and security apparatus and you know are then any big figure that we can you know like why is Howard Hughes and Elon happen to all be connected to a similar Mormon control system I don't know it's very interesting and it's um I don't know what dots to connect there there's just facts uh to stitch together but also like the Mormon church and

you know Associated institutions they have a lot of money they have ton them yeah like hundreds of billions dollars right because everyone ties but also they're really good investors and they just have really closeit business relationships that are glob spaning right so everyone's focused on the car group and everyone else is like okay but like the car group has not been around that long like most Finance you know Elites they don't have a whole lot of like again they want to get rich want to get powerful right but like it's

hard to sustain like a generational project like that it tends to Decay tends to split vicissitudes of you know international finance and business deals right the Mormon Church though they've been around for a while they got lot of money they've got a clear IDE ological you know Vision that they all share codes of conduct interpersonal bonds that you know they don't violate right like you know it's well known that if you're a Mormon and you show up to city like you can kind of of get in right if you're one of the

tribe it's like you know you're one of us right so those are those are features of human society right that are very strong right and that are you know despite the more impersonal sense that we're constructing institutions like intelligence bureaucracies that are impersonal and A- religious well they exist in a social milu with other institutions right and they can be vulnerable to you know different you know loyalt loyalties being tested and compromised over time I don't exactly know how that's played out but like you just have to look at

American society I think it's an odd blind spot that we don't think about the role I me could be very positive I'm not saying it's negative or positive it's just is a fact of our political economy that we have like a religious institution that controls hundreds of billions of dollars capital that also has you know more than almost any other single group probably put more you know seated more people into our intelligence bureaucracies for decades right and just also happens to be strongly associated with our leading technologists over

over the 20 20th and 21st centuries I don't know it's like with the James Simon thing I have no Like There's No Smoking Gun there it just seems like a curious thing right seems something to be you know interested in right I don't it's a very interesting fact pattern well um when it comes to the science stuff you had like know an interesting possible Theory of Everything with this kind of you know Upstream uh hypergraph and you know Gerard and Wolfram uh what about s kind of more local anomalies or like discoveries possibly mid-century so like

the towns of brown example I mentioned that we' we've talked about another one would be like a more extended version of electrodynamics involving you know there's always talks of like a scaler field or whatever um you know do you have conviction in any of these things you mentioned neutrinos like nutrino information transfer I don't know would be maybe another one there might be some cool stuff that I'm not I don't rule any of that out um and like the nutrino one I'll just say is interesting because um you know

neutrinos are particle doesn't very weakly interacts with normal matter but doesn't doesn't not interact with matter we build detectors you know heavy water in the Arctic to get like little flashes and these photo multiplier tubes that you know get like you one out of every you know 400 quadrillion neutrinos actually hits and creates a det um but that's just like coming from the Sun and kind of this amorphous you know spray of neutrinos it's possible I haven't really done the math maybe ask chat PT on this is like if you

were able to construct a really tight high-intensity beam of neutrinos so that the density of the there like many orders of magnitude higher than otherwise would be and you develop a really sensitive detector well then you can send a signal through any basically through the Earth right which would be really useful for something like for example if you're trying to ensure you have like redundant redundant redundant nuclear commic control Communications if your satellites are down all your terrestrial Communications are down but you really

want to ensure that the sub on other side of the Earth can get go codes right you know it doesn't seem like physically impossible to me we really need to run the numbers and do engineering and you know figure it out it doesn't seem impossible to use you know essentially nutrino beam fired through the Earth and if it's sufficiently high intensity and you have a sufficiently sensitive detector um that you could transmit information that way transmit you know launch Goods or other things uh probably wouldn't be high bandwidth

in general it would be like starlink but like for you know certain information communication requirements so I think there's certain aspects like that um that don't to me seem like physically implausible there's other things like scaler Fields I don't know uh I'm not as don't have like a strong opinion um scaler Fields scalar weapons Yep this whole domain I don't know I'm sort of agnostic that there's a part of it which is like if there was enough lwh hanging fruit that is just like a small tweak to say Einstein's field

equations it's hard to believe that somebody wouldn't have figured that out by now y right that some people there's a there's maybe a torsion term in Einstein field equations that we normally ignore that's Ali carton thing yeah that maybe there's and that's been a lot of what has been in kind like unconventional physics approaches is usually taking generativity and like looking for like weird variations of it right what if there was an extra term here that introduced a new field or there was a new degree Freedom here and

what would that mean and that's fine but like the interesting thing about an field equations is that they're actually quite going back to the Gard thing it's actually not that surprising you're that he was able to uh regenerate or kind of generate uh the field equations out of this sort limit discret model is because the Ani equations turn to be kind of like with very minimal constraints on a certain uh how you define know a certain topological structure with a certain metric structure like Einstein field equations are just what you have to get

yeah right they're almost like the natur the most natural description of the metric structure of a very general class of sort manifolds so they're not that special um and therefore they kind of allow many different permutations there many different like little bells and whistles you can kind of add to the Einstein field equations that would you know give maybe different fields different degrees of freedom and it's possible that there are experiments that you could do would allow you to figure that out I wouldn't

rule it out but I haven't done like the Deep dive enough to know whether you know whether that's plausible but it's like to me that's more just like a it's it reminds me a bit of like the toic epicycles which is you know dancing field equations are very simple clean they explain a very general class of phenomenon you want to explain UFOs and so you're looking to be like what bells and whistles can I add to this simple conceptual structure that I can sort of allow me to explain this anomalous phenomenon right how could I

like engineer this space time metric or could zip around using you know scalar Fields or something it just seems a bit clunky it seems a bit cloy a bit like you're looking for the answer that you wanted to get right more specific than that which I agree is sort of lazy thinking one you know thing that might have happened that like Weinstein spoke about Eric Weinstein spoke about on Rogan is you know 1957 Chapel Hill conference you know quantum gravity gets established and there's an Austrian mathematician present named

Herman Bondi and he brings up this question of like what about all these anomalies that might occur if you had theoretical existence of negative mass or negative energy which is was you know totally theoretical at the time and if you didn't have the positivity conditions and you take into account these theoretical you know energy and mass you know negative energy Mass you would get all sorts of weird anomalous effects that like we wouldn't be able to predict with you know the Einstein field equations that do include

uh you know these positivity conditions so if to put a governor on physics it might be these you know positivity conditions then in like I think the '90s we figure out this the Casmir effect which I'm pretty sure now is like consensus physics right that like there are these I guess you know there is this zero point and there are these uh Quantum you know uh fluctuations in the field that like would bring two non-conductive plates closer together because of this sort you know negative energy force or whatever and so

that brings up this question you know and then you look at Miguel Al kuer which everybody talks about aler warp drives this you know uh solution for Einstein faster than light travel you know given general relativity and it involves negative mass and energy and so yes there's something there but the ability to harness something like the Casmir Force for propulsion it's interesting I've seen certain again I'm not like a professional physicist so it's like I try to read people and it's like I think the Casmir effect is one that's hard

to um I don't know if you could extract useful work because you can get essentially vacuum pressure because if you put two super plates you know in the absence the vacuum will emit any mode of sort of spontaneous Quantum uh sort virtual particle pairs but when you impose this boundary condition of two conducting plates you're eliminating you know a whole set of possible modes and therefore there's kind of less energy in between the two plates more energy outside the plate that's a negative pressure maybe could extract work um

that's kind of the basic premise it um I don't know if you could actually like if that there's any like so one interesting thing about general relativity that most people don't understand is that it's not it doesn't conserve energy globally right it only conserves energy locally there's no such actual thing as like Global Universal scale energy conservation and general activity and so there may be loopholes right that's the thing is like are there loopholes right may be Loops because general relativity is is you know doesn't require um

local it doesn't require Global energy conservation so maybe there are tricks you can exploit um but we don't really understand what negative energy really means and then I always try to come back to like my best you know current thinking about what the models are to use to answer this question like the hypergraph you know models are energy um in those models essentially is the um if you have like a surface you know you're just fully getting the the causal graph energy is a measure of the number of causal edges going

through that surface right um and then momentum is just the inverse number of um causal edges if you Orient it and then the time like Direction versus the space like Direction and that's actually how you then construct the Einstein field equations with the stress energy tensor is because you need to have measures of energy in a discrete structure and so there like energy is a discreetly defined measure on this graph structure it's not like this ineffable thing just like an e in equation it's like the number of edges going through an

arbitrary um s uh sort of hypersurface and so then there quite is like what negative energy in that well in this concept thing is like an absolute measure of energy like is always a relational quantity because there's no Global measure of energy energy is always a relative to reference frames and so it's like can you construct a certain way of foliating these hypersurfaces so that from one inertial frame you've got essentially access to an energy gradient right that is negative from your perspective right so it's like there is

no such thing as positive or negative energy there's just you know in the local reference frame that you happen to be you know constructing for yourself for what whatever crazy technology you've got can you know essentially you know engineer a NE like relative negative gradient to like the number of causal edges that are in your future um in your causal future likee I don't know that would be the how you'd have to do it so I don't know it's like you have to look at the fundamental physics theory and be like is that ruled

out right like generativity is not the fal physics theory right so you can construct models of generativity where yeah there's a different terms there's different components there's different um you know states that could potentially you know allow within that broad that very cons self-consistent framework but does that mean that those are physically realizable in our universe right well you be like well no we need to know what the actual fundamental Theory of physics is for our universe yeah and then do those admit of these types

capabilities yeah so I don't rule it out because we don't have the fundamental Theory but I think it's kind of like the level when we're talking about these um you know vacuum metric engineering sorts of descriptions I think there like a higher level description those might be fully consistent with like a bottom up you know gardian view like they might meet somewhere in the middle here where it's like actually it turns out yeah like there are certain special conditions that are emerge in the sort of hypergraph vision things that

do get you uh systems that look like they're consistent with say vacuum metric engineering right but the vacuum metric engineering is just like a higher level or mid-level description here um so it's possible uh this is like and then to go back the historical story it is quite suspicious that like there was all this work on grav gravity specifically and all this stuff you've pointed to in your previous videos it's like there's something there like they were looking at it seriously they were clearly exploring it um and I have

like two interpretations like I think it's very clear to me that US government has been conducting secret fundamental physics research I think that's pretty obvious to like you'd have be really naive to think that the federal gr intelligence Community you know just forgot the lesson of World War II that like oh we took all the smart physicists threw threw them into a secret project and we won global war great go back your business guys like we're just going to set we're going to shut this down you know go back to your normal Ivory

Tower academic jobs and write papers you know we'll call you in the next War what's the answer then to Weinstein Counterpoint to that where he's like where are all the smart like Nar hemed this you know all naming these people he's like why aren't they in the program you know what's going on is Ed Whitten in the program you know like it is a good question um and I don't know like You' have to I don't know what the base rate measure is of like super smart people right and like whether whether the academic production

of of theoretical physicists is the only pipeline for such talent that you could imagine existing like if you really have decades to set up alternative programs to spot Talent when they're 12 or 13 years old y through you know standardized academic testing you understand who the pries are before they make it to college or even PHD programs like you know I think Eric has model of like there's an existing cohort of trained practical theoretical physicists that exist in the discipline and US government is just like we found a UFO

come help us figure it out yep right I think maybe alternative model is like they had that stuff well before modern academic theoretical physics formed as a discipline right and their academic affiliate programs kind of everywhere I mean MIT being super soldier program being like one example but oh and like really smart people do very classified research and don't talk about it um and it's just you know to think you have them like the Harvard faculty has Monopoly on you know 160 I that can you know spend two years reading

fundamental physics journals like it's not that hard yeah totally and you go back to these Declassified cimos and you're like the Outpost for exotic Gravity Research in certain cases it was like Indiana Purdue like it was wasn't necessarily I mean Princeton and and MIT were also named but like it's it's not always you know might assume you know is sort of the tip of the spear as far I look at like Jim Sim was talk about like nobody really knows how many people he's got working for him and like his pipeline could be scaled in probably two three 5

10x and would like who really know yep right especially if he's not targeting midc career or you know coming out of grad school but he's able to spot like for example hel M he was spotted when he was like 12 or 13 years old that's wild 12 or 13 yeah and he was gonna give he was gonna be asked to come to MIT when he was like a you know early teen and he forever family Li reasons he couldn't do it so ended up going to renier poly Technic and then was given a full riding lateral to Yale um and then was sort of entered into the

the system from there right but he was tapped from I think was the MIT president actually tapped him and were you spotted Matthew not that I know know I mean but like you know we had the gifted and talented programs right I did that right went to JN Hopkins um oh you did that you know who knows uh you know I did that too back in the day I I yeah interesting we that's where they PL that's so we had chips embedded in our brain you know was like the juice box you know and then like wait I they to take naps like what was

happening there um so yeah but like that's the thing is like if you're going to manage a program that's fundamental like this is the thing it sounds conspirac like I just first principles if I'm a senior defense inail bureaucrat in like the late 1940s and I'm like all right we won the war the physicists helped us win it was kind of like by the skin our teeth the Nazis were like neck and right like a year it would have been close run thing we can't let that happen again right just happen to have all these smart German physicists these Jews that

were fleeing the Nazis that came here right right it's like we had Einstein had upen we had all these guys you know that were you know uh just kind of got lucky right that we happen to have access to this talent and then we could wet it to our industrial system and like go all systems go um but they'd be like all right we can't that was like an ad hoc kind of like got a bit lucky sort of thing we can't need to systematize this formal formalize that we need to ensure that we have the most talented individuals in our society

identified and steered where we can into positions where we can leverage them for the most strategic national security purposes which the lesson of World War II is most strategic National Security um you know domain is fundamental physics right whoever whoever figures out the next trick in fundamental physics can design potential world changing weapons that just seems like bureaucratic um negligence of the highest order if they didn't put in place a systematic program to identif to spot and identify recruit in various ways talent to help

ensure that fundamental physics research could be conducted in secret for the US government that would be like my Baseline expectation right it seems like an absurd thing because of course Eric is a smart guy he's like I see evidence of this well they've had a lot of time to pract to keep the secret and it doesn't require that many people y right it's not going to be like an and a bunch of nerds sitting in a room somewhere doing math is not going to like show up on much don't make of not going to make much of a footprint totally and

it's not they're going to publish anything y uh so it's you know again how so this is where it's me mechanic mechanistically I would expect such a sort of set programs to have been put in motion it's a whole different question to assess well how successful have they been right because could set up all this apparatus The Government Can Be is really good at creating these programs making them really secret funding them over many years but they're not that good at actually stimulating creative Innovation right so you know

then this kind of explains to me why you have these cases like uh ning Lee or whatever like folks that are clearly doing like Breakthrough research on the margins of some interesting subjects and then they get sort of poof they disappear and is it because it's two explanations one is the government knows that oh there might be an independent reproduction of a breakthrough that they already have and they want to make sure nobody else sees it or they um want to basically take anything that could potentially touch on this secret research area and

and bring it in but they actually haven't made much prog so doesn't tell me one the other theyve actually made much progress in like either a theoretical fundamental breakthrough or an engineered application of the funel Breakthrough I you can assume they have these programs and they've gotten nowhere yeah it I mean it just what you're saying makes total sense because I think you know if this stuff was housed in the Manhattan Project you know before the setup of maybe some sort of distributed Recon system or whatever to track you know

young prodigies uh it seemed like the destructiveness of Science and Tech was just going asmic at the time and so to like not clamp down with safeguards as far as you know both uh being able to recruit uh but also being able to quickly hide you know what you're working on that would seem like this big National Security priority right and we have recent evidence like again hearsay but Andre Horowitz and Ben Horowitz had this meeting and they reported back with the National Security Council senior staff and an individual on that Security

Council said we have classified entire areas of fundamental physics before yes don't think we can do the same for AI this was in rejoinder to uh andreon horwood saying you can't classify AI it's just math yep and they're like you bet you bet we can did it before yep it's like there you go guys and I think there's like a Rand Corp initiative to like basically have a global control system over compute because of the AGI race and there might be an interesting connection on like Rand Corp and some of the more secret science for Tech when it

comes to propulsion and that sort of thing I don't know if youve had a coners I've tweeted about this so I guess I should say it now because it's public but like be careful how much details I get but had a conversation o over a year ago I forget exactly when we just go back to my Twitter um probably coming up on a year ago now with a former very senior Department of Defense individual and you know we had been chatting about lots of different subjects and um again kind of uaps came up and um this individual described having a meeting with uh

arrow and this individual was responsible for um managing large collections of saps uh including those that touched on AI stuff including other things and you know this person has been around the block in terms of you know even when you're getting a top secret seci briefing on a particular program um when they give the similar briefings on their saps they regularly give [ __ ] briefings at the highest level of classification to others you know that's just that's just the game right if you don't need to know you don't

know but the existence of such a program is something that's hard to keep secret so you give a [ __ ] briefing when he was sitting on the at arrow briefing was like that was the perception this was the [ __ ] briefing game recognized game was the quote basically and we got a bit further into it and they said um you know it's a triangle AI Quantum and the grush stuff that was it and we were you know in an environment where I couldn't want to press too much into the issue you know I didn't have it wasn't like this sort of

sit down where it's like it go for hours um so that was basically where it it sort of landed um and I've been chewing on that for a while you know AI Quantum and the grush stuff that's wild that's super interesting I my mind's going crazy now that's and you can imagine I mean all those different ways you could permute that right Quantum you can interpret as Quantum Computing yeah or you can interpret Quantum as like more like Quantum weird spooky Consciousness stuff yeah uh or something else or materials yeah Quantum

Quantum materials Quantum yeah just he just said Quantum AI and in the government like Quantum is usually used as like a catch all for that stuff yeah right well not the Consciousness but like Quantum sensing Quantum Computing you know Quantum C Ry Etc um so I don't know this but there clearly is a sense and this why AI is becoming important like you know the program that Michael shellenberger wrote about he might even be testifying in Congress next week about it you know apparently he's using AI to identify you know uaps and maybe

even arvs uh it's a characteristic morphology and we have lots of sensors and we're saying okay we need to and if AI is becoming much more decentralized and a capability that is in the private sector well that would be a problem right um so there might be a lot of technological trends that are underway that are just going to make keeping this in the bottle just almost like you know much more difficult um there's also the you know more abstract or like you um speculative which is okay you know any arbitrary form of intelligence is

likely going to share like kind of be coming from a different spot in the Ral Multiverse to communicate in the multiple in the Royal Multiverse you need to share Concepts like concepts are the bridge are like that's actually the category theoretic like um transportation measure like a distance measure in space is like your conceptu um so like we are really close in space people that come from different languages are a little bit fur apart but the otherwise are close together because of their common history so in assembly

Theory you can see this is like they share a common ancestry but only they recently branched right so they only haven't gone too far in real space so like you can do translation between Chinese and English pretty well right there's certain Concepts in Chinese that you can't easily map to English and vice versa right just that's the nature of trying to do you know essentially translation you know there's not complete translation in variance Ral space between different you know different cognitive systems but an

arbitrary Intelligence coming from that has an entirely different assembly history is likely not going to be that close to us in Realo space so but what are AI system is really good at basically helping to explore and translate through rul space right that's why we're now using AI systems to try like decode dolphin and like well sounds right this because there's they're really good at basically in this sort of very multi-dimensional Vector space identifying what are those patterns of regularity and then you know creating

like a map of what the conceptual structure inside that representational space is and then figure out okay is there a certain mapping that I can go from internal representational system to human representational systems it's like what is the whale equivalent of like friend you know might be there probably is a plausible way of De developing an encoding essentially between human Concepts and whale Concepts right and that would be like one of the top priorities right of course we have the movie arrival it's like the top

priority is like trying to develop an encoding system between human Concepts and nhi Concepts right and AIS will be very important maybe have been extremely important in developing such an encoding right um and it's probably no secret or no surprise that like you know the guy co-founder of Renaissance was Robert Mercer Mercer invented basically large language models and applied those along with other you know the leading they were leading most of the AI stuff basically and making money using some of it and doing semantic analysis like you know

they didn't have the Transformer architecture back then but they were doing all sorts of crazy Advanced AI stuff um so that would be the exactly team with skills you would apply to being like we've got we're getting Communications we're not quite sure how to trust them right and the NSA is really you know their job is to like do decryption right um and you can almost think about like decryption is basically the same thing as like fundamental physics in some way right like you're you're getting you get a certain

know like the UN universe is this unfolding computation that's computationally irreducible to Any Given Observer that can't inspect all its micro States and so there's some core screening that core scening function is essentially is like an encryption our models are like encryptions of the underlying pattern of the world right and then we're trying to when we do physics we're trying to like you know decrypt right those representations we like a naive representation of the universe we're trying to decrypt what

like the underlying you know Factor was that generated phenomenon and so the NSA is really good at doing those sort things so there's a lot of overlap between the kinds research and Technologies skills you would need to like understand the nhi problem that are Way Beyond just like you know engineering topological materials right you'd want to be able communicate be able to trust the communication be able to you know understand what sorts of you know concepts are embedded and what sorts of social information is embedded in those

Concepts right like you know we can maybe learn a lot about how like whale social structure actually works by decoding their Concepts right like how close is the friend and enemy or food source you know these different interesting Concepts we might be able to get anchors on how close are they to each other might be like interesting observations that you could discern by studying those sorts of linguistic categories you're making me think of the Danny shean story where he's taken into a skiff in Washington at the behest of

the Carter Administration to review the Blue Book files on all these UFOs and he claims he sees a picture high definition picture of a UFO crashed into Mountaintop and he traced the photo Drew all these like bizarre kind of hieroglyphic looking symbols and I'm wondering if we could use AI on that with some maybe symbolic conventions or something I mean this is where it gets quite weird because you're if you assume there some interaction right and most of the firstperson accounts have been you know you know non non-recordable interactions

right just like you know ineffable you're destroying the planet nukes are bad you know Danger's coming right sorts of tropy stuff um but you know that seems a bit like are there other more definitive you know forms of information like records that have been deposited right or given or encodings from certain signals that we've been able to translate um or be able to write down right um like the first I can imagine like this Pro program if you really like imagine it's like Possible full branches right there's like the biological piece

there's the hardware physical science Material Science piece fundamental physics for propulsion Etc piece there's the xenolinguistics piece the sort of sociocultural you know aspect of that be like all these different branches right imagine you're trying to study Human Society right it's like you would have it all right you look for the artifacts you could look for all the maybe unintended signals that we would be sending to try understand so that'd be a massive program but all we be compartmentalized into all these

different domains and you know AI would be really important to help you synthesize and integrate develop hypothesis for that research project right so maybe that's what he was pointing at right is and you need some sort of Immaculate constellation to quarantine some of the calms both from a kind of you know physical perspective if there are crashed UFOs but also yeah the Cals going on between people and that sort of thing yeah and then there'd be the you know there'd be the basic intelligence function AI could help and

there's be the very important Counter Intelligence function right um and there's some weird stories that have been coming out recently of just how like in general like the government is usually like several steps ahead of the private sector I think in generative AI they're probably not but that doesn't mean they're not ahead in certain certain areas that work are applications of AI it could be quite far ahead um that are more unique to like you know government use cases like the government is not going to invest a

whole lot in Dolly not going to a whole lot in like a chatbot right there's just not a function that's going to align any government function that's going to get the R&D but there are you know things people are naive to think that the private sector just happened explore the most advanced um part of the tech tree right cly they explored a part of the tech tree that happens to be very uh infrastructure uh energy intensive um the government because it has to be secret probably would discount those branches because we can't build

200200 billion dollar worth of AI in you know infrastructure to train the next models like we got to keep this secret so we would look for other Transformer non- Transformer architectures probably to explore and we have time to like you know test those out without you know the competitive race with open ey to like oh we got something at work like now we're stuck we got to like basically scale this up and keep training a bigger bigger model um this is all to say I think people assume that like regards to AI that open Ai and anthropic are

like much further ah head than anyone else and I think it might be there be orthogonal vectors here for certain applications certain um architectures uh and again it's like you assume fundamental physics research could be done in secret it's like well it could be fundamental AI research that's done in secret right like as soon as this is identified as a requirement there's a pipeline there's an sop there's a process structure this you know is what I would I would hope is happening um but then it's not just us Chinese the

Russians um others maybe and the Chinese have gotten really good at doing some of these Nar applications for their social surveillance purposes and other things and those are there's like weird things happening now with people uh you know being really good at manipulating individuals online right really good at you know generating humanlike um actions in certain ways um and that would be you know a way of kind distorting our internal conversations on subjects like like uce right so I think the this is like a convergence of these different

trends of like disclosure on the one hand but also the ability of society to like sense make yes is like being degraded almost at the same Pace yes so I do wonder if we get to a point where like yeah the government goes we're actually going to come out with everything but like the basic ability of you know Society what we call to to process that in something like a consistent fashion could just be rendered obsolete on that note where do you think the UFO conversation goes from here because there's there I mean

are two camps one is you know if we were having this conversation 40 50 years ago and we were kind of invested in the issue it probably would have been the wrong investment right like not a lot happened uh and then the other Camp is things seem to be kind of unraveling quickly and snowballing so yeah where do you think things go from here this is the tough question I don't think it's going back in the bottle um I think I think we will be facing more disruption recognition information soon um you know I take the

title of Lando's book seriously y right he doesn't say that for a reason and he's given other remarks that you know indicate this is not something you're going to be just like uh Kick the Can for decades yeah right I do not though fall into the camp of like there's a 2027 clock and yeah they're showing up right that's I've heard that I know people have said that as like you know word got around that they're going to come up and show in 2027 this is why we need to you know get ready people prepared Etc I don't rule it out

but like that seems not the my Baseline scenario um I think see a convergence of things that are now kind of historically it's like it's like the vibe right it's almost like there are things that I know people are potentially going to come out and say publicly but is that going to be what we call capity disclosure right it's like who's paying attention who cares right it's like information can come out can come either VI individuals in sort of a sastic self-organized process and they may have the professional bonafides the

historical experience The credibility to get maybe the next marginal increment of the population to pay attention and go what the hell right but we've had a number of those people already right it's just like we're kind of on this ratchet which is like the heds Canadian defense minister more recent era you've had David grush Lou you've got Carl Nell CH Millan like these are not like household names but they s we're climbing this ladder here right and we've had suggestive remarks come from multiple presidents

and it's this is like an accretion over time and I think there will be expect there'll be more individuals of senior caliber coming out and saying things but I think it will be in alignment with an evolving political process that I think is non-deterministic right in the sense that like UAP disclosure Act was you know one version of this kind of controlled process but that was written before people thought that Trump was going to have Unified Government and is now going to have RFK and the in there and Elon doing

Truth and Reconciliation committees like opening up all the books on everything yeah like I'm sorry but that's not like those are just different those are very diff distinct approaches to this and I don't know if the UAP disclosure act process of having nine you know s of technocrats appointed by the president I mean think that could still survive I think it's an important process because you need to have an accountable independent uh procedure here but if I'm just making a forecast like it's likely going to be messier

than what that process originally envisioned right just um I don't know we'll see I don't know how but like VC know is very interested in the subject JD is very interested in the subject um Elon seems to have changed his tune a bit uh RFK is very interested in the subject Trump has obviously talked about it M so where this sits in there like how they're going to manage this who like it's like who are they going to sign this problem right that's be the big question and then is this a this uh should we try to get

appointments I don't know man you want the Red Dot in your head um probably not you know better to be behind the camera that you know uh the guy actually doing stuff as far disclos yeah that's probably right I mean it's interesting like the control disclosure campaign plan would set up this UAP records review board and that records Rie would be have that all the status of an ex executive department agency obviously the subpoena Authority univ lateral declassification Authority with presidential override um but it

will also allow them to you know Leverage The capacities uh and authorities of the federal acquisition regulation so they could actually with a budget issue contracts so they could hire full-time staff and have issue contracts to thirdparty advisers write reports and studies contribute to um you know expert analysis on the various strands of the these questions which would be explicitly under their mandate to report and make recommendations to the president across all these instruments of National Power right that Carl Nell has talked about

and so that is like the like the standard you know U like DC approach we got a tough problem you know there's a hot potato the Senate really doesn't want to have own it you know the house really can't deal with it the executive branch is kind of like you know looking into its own backyard and the NC is you know relatively small and so we're going to convene and panel this independent group it's gonna be you know president will obviously have veto Authority but it's gonna basically everyone gets to pass the Hot Potato

this group so that logic might still stand right because I could see between the incoming Administration that same basic sense of like do I really want this to come out but do I want own this hot potato do I want to like navigate all this morass or do I want to be like I agree we should have this independent group over here of people that I can recommend that're kind of like you know my friends and allies or whatever but like they do the hard work yeah and they dig with the messy stuff and they get a budget and the

clearances and they get the contracts and then that becomes an like a separate more institutional apparatus to formally go through this sort of thing and make recommendations to you president Trump um I think it's would still push for the U disclosure act um versus say some ad hoc VC Truth and Reconciliation committee that God knows how would be formalized and stood up structured and also like what other things would be sort of stuffed under its remit it would dutee its purpose distract it politicize potentially

and I think it's just better course of action to just put the energy behind this existing you know framework and it doesn't matter who you appoint obviously that's like you know this the structure is there it's how you fill out that structure like who gets appointed to these positions if they pass this law um under the new admin so we'll see um but also there's the Legacy folks inside the house that you still have to deal with right like the Roger uh the Rogers and Turner um you know we'll see how much like in general

an incoming Administration has lots of priorities and you know certain reservor of political Capital UFOs is not at the top of that list well that's the interesting thing it's like hard to say how it fits and um you know honestly a path resistance for them is to just kick the kick it to an independent group right yeah um because if they're going to go through this dirty laundry glassos procedure you might have to spend a lot of your own executive political C Capital like on adjudicating every one of those decisions on this record

this thing this program like where's that line going to be drawn is like a case by and that's very that's a messy thing right I'm not sure any of these people want to be making those decisions or spending their political Capital fighting you know God knows who right where it's like hey kick it over to this group give them a bunch of money give them a clear mandate let them deal with it and you kind of our hands off to a certain extent and then the important decisions you can kind of air drop in and you know right put your

thumb on the scale um so that would be I don't preferred scenario to play out here um I mean there is a scenario where you know all these folks come in and they've been singing a certain tune they go disclosure openness glass nose etc etc then they get shown whatever it is and they go nah sorry guys n this whole UFO thing I don't know that way were just we're good yeah look over here right I mean it's always the scenario you have to know yep put onto your to the the to the table here because I don't really know what's behind that curtain

right and whether there is something that's just like yep nope not going to talk about it right we hear an awful lot of unnerving stories from people like Jeremy Corbell or Ross colthart who are like ostensibly talking to people on Legacy programs directly and like they all say the same thing so they get to a certain level in the conversation you know whatever and the person goes if you knew what I know you wouldn't be Pro disclosure or something you know some they sort of hint at some extremely ontologically shocking truth

and I never know how to compute that it's this sort of you know uh epist epistemic impass if you're on the other side of it where it's like I don't know that's why I actually think you know the C control disclosure campaign plan sorry I probably butchered that um is you know like almost need to shift human consciousness right it sounds a bit colloquial and woow woo but it goes back to earlier part of conversation it's like you know we are we're embodied creatures but we have certain mental capacities and a certain

you know folk world like worldview of what's possible what's not like the immediate Horizon of most people's lives is very you know foreshortened it's got to pay the rent get kids up for school you know get through the day and you know the job of a state is to ensure that those background functions of everyday life are not subject to like radical volatility that's why we have a state is to ensure that like I can get on the road in the morning and get to work my taxes are paid and my school starts on time and the teachers show up

it's like that just needs to happen right like that's the first order of business as a government right and so I do have sympathy for anything that the government could Envision releasing to the public that threatens those sort of core you know lifelines of society it's like that's your job as soon like that would be the government essentially you know committing Harari right be like just abdicating its fundamental responsibility um and so this is where the tension lies and actually I think you know the more that

they can sort of get out their own hands into the PRI Civil Society to manage the better because government shouldn't be the source of ontological Truth for people the government shouldn't be like a religious you know institution interpreting the world for its citizens like that's not the job of the government to tell me like what the capital T truth is like the nature of reality or any of this like no you take my taxes you defend me keep the lights on you know like do that right you're not I don't look to you like

you know you're not the pope right you're you're not but it's also not the job to suppress capital truth unless that involves some you know clear trade secret on the National Security front but this is where I think the Mandate like this is more philosophical like what is the the social contract in America what is the form of government we have the con IAL Republic and the understanding of the framers that has been evolved over time like it's like there you know even if you're a originalist or you're you know

a flexible you know kind of constitutionalist like I don't think the National Security Act the toic energy act like can plausibly or even morally be extended to non-human intelligence fact of yeah I just fully reject that whole sale that the fact of non-han intelligence is it's not government information like existentially legally morally is not government information right other things like the existence of advanced Aerospace propulsion systems Material Science breakthroughs maybe even theoretical physics research although that's

that's litigable uh are government information those can be properly classified under under a mandate where the authorities making those determinations you know are doing so in accordance with our legal mechanisms for constitutional oversight where you know we have procedures have laws for secrecy and reporting to Congress and it seems like on that front we clearly have a problem right that needs to be cleaned up where these programs have not been properly reported to you know the cognizant oversight mechanisms um in our system of

government and it's just like yeah if you want to have a democracy the way we think we have one you need to fix that does that mean everything comes out no but you need means that accountability objective clearly needs some work to be done and then there the disclosure objective where the disclosure objective at least for me is the fact of non-human intelligence if that is known with high confidence by the US government is illegitimate kept from the public that's just not something they can keep secret um I think there's no moral justification for

that right um even if it's like going to be destabilized it depends on what you say right it's not like you know could say yes we're not alone we're studying it we're going to impanel these institutions public private sector Civil Society to really understand it then you slowly leak out the sensitive information right that's maybe more prudent doesn't mean you release everything it but I think this uh Mera can no can longer I think be effectively sustained because I think it won't be right it's like clear that

either adversaries or private sector individuals from these programs are going to keep pushing that Y and then you're in this you're uh you know uh game of no good choices if you're if you're trying to ma manage that that process of disclosure it's like you know either get on board with this controlled mechanism or it's going to be you know RFK coming in there and just like tweeting out you know everything you've been doing that's like I think the last few days know we're recording a few days after the election it is just like the

the shock wave is just like propagating through right and I think we haven't seen what this means for disclosure and what different actors now throughout these different systems that we're modeling now have to radically adjust their personal you know like incentives here right uh it's like okay you know there's a story just about the FBI right like like off the Record quotes from senior officials of the FBI being like it was like the kind of a morbid joke that was um you know the senior officials on whatever seventh floor um you know they

they they're they haven't passed their fit test in a while but they're going to need run out the door like there's an expectation filtering through just say the FBI as an example that it's just going to be a purged purges wild right and just so then carry that through right these other different structures and if that is now that's a radical change in the institutional bureaucratic environment that yeah that the U UFO UAP disclosure conversation is now situated in well it's fascinating because like historically you have JFK

saying I'm going to scouted the CIA the winds you know being at loggerheads with them you have Nixon saying he's going to fire a third of the CIA or whatever maybe that was a subn narrative for Watergate a little bit and then uh you have you know similar stuff with Carter usually it doesn't end well for like the reforming president but I've never seen so much force and Power on the side of force reduction in bureaucracy as I do today with Elon RFK this Coalition of like we [ __ ] had it and like the history of this country is

way more messed up than you know people realize we're going to like fire all these people so I'm very curious to see how this How This Ends and if it's you know history repeating itself or if you know maybe uh you do just see this massive watershed moment yeah I mean think this is the tale of old time which is you know how does this urge for reform not be captured right um and to what extent you know everyone has an agenda right like it's you know everyone's like oh good guys bad right the Deep State versus you know

Elon wonder you know Wonder team it's like everyone is a flawed person everyone has an agenda everyone's working at everyone's working an angle right question is you know are the interests of civil society and public accountability like those higher level objectives are those being met or not met by the actions of De and decisions made by each of those different sides it's like I don't have allegiance to any particular team I have allegiance to these higher level sort of social political and moral objectives so if

if anyone in particular decides to move in a Direction that's aligned with that I'm supportive if they move against it then I'm not supportive right so I think this is where it would be important to watch and for folks that are interested in you know pushing U disclosure to like hold people to account right regardless of your particular team or tribe and be like I have a certain political objective I think we need to establish these independent mechanisms of accountability and transparency you know whoever's in power that's my expectation

right whether it's Elon or anybody else it's like this is my where I'm going to hold you um account so you know that's what we're heading into now it's going to be a lot of a lot of things are now on the table and it's gonna be fascinating to see how it all plays out can't wait Matthew Pines this was awesome we could go on for hours uh you mentioned before we started rolling that there might be a you know a federal reserve and Bitcoin we didn't even get to that which shows just how much we had to discuss on UFO

secret science all the other fronts but uh I hope we can do this again and this was an absolute blast man yeah anytime cool all right thank you so much to delete me for sponsoring this video if you want to remove your data from the internet go to the link in subscription for 20% off right now